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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2005 : 17:55:58
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This is just a musing inspired by thinking about the catholic church's recent backpedaling on evolution.
At the moment, two of the biggest issues that inspire people to try to inject religious beliefs into the public discourse are abortion and stem cell research. Those who oppose these activities seem to have like no sense of history. Even creationists don't seem to mind their kids hearing in school that the earth revolves aroud the sun, and not vice versa, and that the earth is round and not flat. A couple of centuries ago, not only were those fightin words, but monk Giordino Bruno was burned at the stake for proposing the former. On the other hand, the same church elders who ordered Bruno's execution and Galileo's house arrest had no opinion on abortion. In the 1600s, teaching that the sun, not the earth, was the center of the movement of the planets was believed to be something that could destroy the faith of church members. And yet, in the centuries our lives straddle, plenty of people believe in the heliocentric solar system and manage to be catholics at the same time.
I don't have a whole lot of experience with protestant christianity, but I did go to catholic school for six years. The catholic church claims that the pope is infallible. They not only oppose abortion, but call it murder, and consider it to be all good catholics' job to oppose not only abortion, but politicians who don't oppose abortion. [Before about 1840, the catholic church's position was that before "quickening", when the woman feels movement of the fetus, it was not an abortion. There's a big difference between holding a position for 165 years and "eternal truth."]
Churches claim that they are dealing with eternal truths, yet the things that get them riled up seem to change over time - just like any other human organizations.
[And, speaking of creationists, when they say that God created the earth with fossils in situ, aren't they accusing this great, all-good, all-knowing being of fraud?]
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trish |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 20:21:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
[And, speaking of creationists, when they say that God created the earth with fossils in situ, aren't they accusing this great, all-good, all-knowing being of fraud?]
I hadn't thought of that! Indeed! 
Trish, I fear that you are looking for logic where little exists. The church(s) will continue to tout an unfindable, supernatural being for as long as they can convince believers such is the only answer to anything. Catholic/Protestant, sameo-sameo, as far as I can see. Since they don't do Latin anymore, the main difference is in the frills and decorations.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 21:40:33 [Permalink]
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I'm with you that we can't make logic of such un-logic [I don't even want to call it illogical, to emphasize how far "out there" it is].
I just question why we need imput from such organizations/systems of belief. Not only have they been spectacularly wrong about facts [sun revolves around the earth, the end of the world will be in 1843, spring won't come if Aztecs don't rip beating hearts from the chests of human beings]. And while they claim tradition and eternal truth, they are just as liable to change focus over time as any other group of humans [In 1600 a heliocentric universe could ruin a person's faith, now the threat is cuss words on cable and recreational drugs]. Having had thousands of years of opportunities to test their rules on populations, religions have not demonstrated a better ability to govern than secular governments. And, if all that isn't enough, religions create divisions among people who would otherwise be indistinguishable: in Northern Ireland, in the Middle East, and I'm sure in other places whose history I am not as familiar with.
Finally, one has to wonder why religions, whose stated purpose is to impress upon people that something that they cannot detect with their senses in their everyday lives is more important that that life and world would go to so much trouble to try to control governments and citizens in this plane. I mean, if this world is illusion, or sadness, or just a gamut of temptations one has to run in order to qualify for rank in the afterlife, wouldn't a focus on events in the world of here & now be counterproductive? Wouldn't it interfere with "turning your eyes to God" to run for the school board?
I have to wonder.
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trish |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 14:10:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran:
I just question why we need imput from such organizations/systems of belief. Not only have they been spectacularly wrong about facts [sun revolves around the earth, the end of the world will be in 1843, spring won't come if Aztecs don't rip beating hearts from the chests of human beings]. And while they claim tradition and eternal truth, they are just as liable to change focus over time as any other group of humans [In 1600 a heliocentric universe could ruin a person's faith, now the threat is cuss words on cable and recreational drugs]. Having had thousands of years of opportunities to test their rules on populations, religions have not demonstrated a better ability to govern than secular governments. And, if all that isn't enough, religions create divisions among people who would otherwise be indistinguishable: in Northern Ireland, in the Middle East, and I'm sure in other places whose history I am not as familiar with.
Finally, one has to wonder why religions, whose stated purpose is to impress upon people that something that they cannot detect with their senses in their everyday lives is more important that that life and world would go to so much trouble to try to control governments and citizens in this plane. I mean, if this world is illusion, or sadness, or just a gamut of temptations one has to run in order to qualify for rank in the afterlife, wouldn't a focus on events in the world of here & now be counterproductive? Wouldn't it interfere with "turning your eyes to God" to run for the school board?
I have to wonder.
I think the whole religious thing may just be a way to try to empower oneself in a big, hostile, uncaring universe. What could be better than to have the Top Banana on your side? And if he is on your side, then it just depends on the size of your need to impress your will on others. Today the school board, tommorow the world!
And of course facts, logic, and reason play no part. Because if you really acknowledge facts and really apply logic and reason to religious belief, it would disappear. And then where would you be? No, you only grudgingly change when your market research indicates you're in serious jeopordy of losing your power base. "OK, the earth goes around the sun, but that's only because god made it that way." |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 14:45:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
[And, speaking of creationists, when they say that God created the earth with fossils in situ, aren't they accusing this great, all-good, all-knowing being of fraud?]
I would think the explanation would be that The Great Satan put them there after god created the earth. See? It all makes sense. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 16:16:50 [Permalink]
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You're gonna live to really regret gettin' me started on this....
I think that there is little doubt, even though it can't be confirmed for obvious reasons, that religions became manifest in the age when our hominid ancestors first began to experiment with sentience. Due to disagreements as to when and what species, it is impossible to pin it down very closely. H. nendertalsis was certainly religious, as there is solid evidence that they practiced ceremonial burial. The Cro Magnon in the same times were, as well. Both had sophisticated tool kits, Cro Magnon slightly more so.
But I take it back a lot farther than this, and I'll explain why in a minute. I think that religion, perhaps not as we know it, but religion never the less, dates from a little while before an ancient genious picked up a cobble, roughly knapped a couple of flakes from it, and made a better hand axe. This shows a reasoning ability well beyond what we see in chimps in that it was thought out rather than a learned habit. It further shows practical curiosity, that all-important drive powering all discoveries. The guy (or gal, who knows?) was grasping at sapience.
But there are certain disadvantages to curiosity beyond defunct felines. The sapient, including ourselves, must have an answer for everything, and if that answer isn't apparent, he will put it down to that which he can't understand, ie: the supernatural. Our axe-maker no doubt was awed by the cycles of the year and the 'rising' of the sun and moon, and, as there was no logical explanation at hand, he (or she) decided that god(s) of sorts were running those particular shows. And quite possibly, crude ceremonies were performed in the hope of hurrying the migratory game animals and the regrowth of plants along. Shamen and priests evolved from this, and the practice is still around to this very day...
This insatiable inquistiveness remains with us, and so do the various religions and their shamen and priests. They are far more sophisticated of course, but amount to the exact, same thing: a quest for answers to the Eternal Questions. And here is where it gets bloody.
Even back in the time of our axe-maker, the belief that they had the right slant on their version of the metaphysical, and only they, was likely manifest. To not believe meant that the afore-mentioned plants and animals might be late or not come at all. There could even be droughts with devestating effects. Thus, their religion, as formless as it might have been, was all-important and heresy probably didn't exist within the group. This last was to change....
As noted, some fairly sophistcated religions existed in the times of the Neandertals and Cro Magnon. As the Neandereals died out and the Cro Magnon became virtually our sole, nearest ancestor, their cultures became more sophistcated yet, and their religions did likewise. In the fullness of time, religions became highly varied and even more intense. A non-believer could be put to death in particularly nasty ways for his heresy, because each belief system was certain that they had the franchise. To disagree was to make the God(s) angry, and who knows what a pissed-off Supreme Being(s) were capable of? A pretty good case could be made for self-defense. Yet still, it was the search for a coherent answer to Everything, and anyone who has read a little history can take it from here...
And we still seek those answers, but the churchs have competition. Science began to evolve from alchemey and as firm knowledge replaced metaphysical conjecture, the churchs began to feel threatened and reacted accordingly, as again, history tells us.
And they feel threatened today, but no longer have the power to stem the march of discovery, although they are trying hard to regain it. And this is why the Vatican is trying to turn it's back on the ToE. And this is why the religious right is so vocal about any science not supported by some religious text, however inaccurate and scientificly silly that text might be, and even though that science is not mentioned in it. We are, after all, the image of God -- or so it is said.
They would have it that the sun rises over a stationary earth, just like the axe-maker. That's a poor metaphore, but it has a certain meaning, does it not?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/17/2005 06:52:33 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 16:32:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
You're gonna live to really regret gettin' me started on this....
On the contrary, excellent post filthy. Please let us know precisely what set you off, so that we can arrange to do more of it. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 16:57:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
You're gonna live to really regret gettin' me started on this....
On the contrary, excellent post filthy. Please let us know precisely what set you off, so that we can arrange to do more of it.
Filthy is the only one of us who can remember that far back... (' ') |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 17:25:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
You're gonna live to really regret gettin' me started on this....
On the contrary, excellent post filthy. Please let us know precisely what set you off, so that we can arrange to do more of it.
Filthy is the only one of us who can remember that far back... ('')
Yeah, but you're gettin' there, bro. As is everyone...
Just some thoughts I've had over the years. They sorta congealed like three-day, left-over grits in this thread.
Sorry 'bout the typos. I hit the post button instead of preview, and then got too lazy to clean it up with an edit. 
Edit: And now, as I got taken up in a sort of Calvinist guilt trip, I went back and straighted it out a little.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/17/2005 06:45:19 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2005 : 23:52:42 [Permalink]
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Catholics do not think the Pope is infallible. The things he says are believed to be infallible (protected by the Holy Spirit from being false) only when the Pope speaks ex cathedra - which has been done only four times in the history of the papacy.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/18/2005 23:56:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 00:23:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Catholics do not think the Pope is infallible. The things he says are believed to be infallible (protected by the Holy Spirit from being false) only when the Pope speaks ex cathedra - which has been done only four times in the history of the papacy.
Indeed. But this man has the power sway millions with no more than a casual word in conversation. I find that a lot more authoritive, and chilling, than the 'infallible' nonsense.
Fortunatly, that power seems to be gradually diminishing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 23:32:37 [Permalink]
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Alas, the problem with being a freethinking moralist:
RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY: This must happen, and it must happen this way, because according to(Insert God/the Universe/the gods/other type of higher power) that is what is Right.
FREETHINKER: "Look, I want this to happen, and I think this is the best way to make it happen. What, you don't want that to happen? Well, uh, why not, darnit? And what else... you also disagree about what's the best way to make it happen? Well, gosh-darnit, we're not gonna get anything done if we keep arguing about it. Oh poopie." |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/19/2005 23:33:43 |
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