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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2005 : 03:19:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Because arrogant Americans like to blow their own horn. Not unlike the quote below, where you chose to single out the US as the greatest nation.
I'm not saying that all Americans are arrogant, far from it. It's just that they are the ones that tend to stick out of the crowd.
That fails to have any basis in rational thinking.
For now, you seem to be lacking in the rational thinking department, because I obviously hit a nerve.
You started by claiming USA rocks.
BPS pointed (as did I) to evidence contrary to your view, and then you ask me why I single out USA?
I singled out USA in this instance because you were boosting for USA with claim that was quite inaccurate except from a very narrow point of view.
What I consider arrogant is you claiming USA rock, and even when faced with evidence to the contrary, refuse to acknowledge that evidence.
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Some Americans are arrogant, therfore you hate America?
No, not because some are arrogant. I dislike America for several reasons (which is a subject for another thread). I guess I'm mostly afraid of America because of it's irrational government.
Don't confuse my dislike and fear with hatred.
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And somebody tell BPS to check that list again, The us is 22nd on it BECAUSE the list is alphabetized! NOT because we have the lowest %GNP given to foriegn aid. So, we aren;t even the greediest nation on the list.... fuckin A.
That's a red herring. And one that is so obvious I'm surprised you even bothered to make it.
A statement of fact isn't a red herring, unless it is not relevent to the topic. BPS indicated that the US was #22 on that list, with the implication that the US was last. Well, on the list linked to, the US was #22 because the list is in alphabetical order, not for any other reason.
PBS's link, http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs
is pointing to a section in the report, in which that table is only one one part. You are deliberately staring yourself blind on a table which is alphabetically sorted, and choose to use that fact to dismiss the rest of the article. Read the paragraph above the table, and scroll down to the following bar-graphs that breaks down the information in more easily accessible information, because you couldn't be bothered to examine the content of the alphabetically ordered table.
I called it a red herring because you were using the fact that the table was alphabetically sorted to draw away the attention from the content of the table, and the other bar-graphs. If this act of misdirection is not qualified as a red herring, then I stand corrected.
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You do so by the power of the size of your country. (how many times do I need to repeat that?)
Scroll down to the chart labelled: "Net ODA in 2004 as US dollar amounts"
The three European nations France, Germany, and Great Britain each gives slightly less than half as much as the US, but they all have roughly 1/10th of the population. Together they have less than half the population of the US with good margin, yet easily give more aid than the US.
So?
You wrote: "The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No."
I just proved you wrong, and all you have to say is "So?"
What kind of attitude is that?
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If the US gave a full 2% of our GNP in aid, it wouldn't stop anyone from hating us, would it?
There's no way of knowing until you do. But you have already decided it wouldn't, haven't you?
Sweden ends up at the top of the quality graph thanks to the fact that Sweden doesn't have a lot of strings attached to the aid it's giving. Sweden is not pushing an agenda in the third world (like imposing Christian values on the recipients, or "only teach abstinence not condoms" in return for AIDS relief).
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Besides, so many voters here in the US are fed up with the anti-American sentiment that foreign aid is unstable political ground these days. Most politicians are not going to make it an issue. Blame the haters for that.
It's the American politicians that are responsible for the anti-American sentiment in the first place. Partly from directly interfering with other countries by way of overt and covert military involvement, and letting American companies exploit the natural resources of other countries for their own profit.
And then, there's the environment issue...
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There are other aspects of US aid that aren't measured in a strict monetary way, either. For example, the people we send around the world (all volunteers) when some catastrophe strikes.
True. But so do other countries too, America is far from unique in this respect.
But I applauded the American initiative to offer relief to the Iranian government a few years back when they had a very bad earth-quake. In that situation it was the fucked up government of Iran that refused out of pride or other considerations.
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But obviously nothing I say here is going to convince you to not hate us, or to even think past the emotional response to the current administration's policies.
Hate is a strong word, and not shared by most. Distrust, dislike, fear to mention a few. And then we have the aggravated situation caused by idiots such as the one in the_ignored's opening post.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2005 : 10:29:26 [Permalink]
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http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4220850 A Related story headlining Economist.com
Mali begs for help... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 20:14:21 [Permalink]
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I can sympathize with many of the anti-US views out there. I don't like it, and I find it insulting at times, but rationally I understand where it comes from. Our recent foreign policy hasn't exactly been beyond reproach. Unfortunately, many people in the US don't see how arrogant our policies appear from beyond the light of US nationalism. Some of the points made by Dude earlier in this thread illustrate this.
quote:
Posted by Dude
If the US were to cease all foreign aid, and call all debt due, what would happen to the rest of the world?
While I'll agree with the premise that we give more in dollars in foreign aid than other countries, this does not mean that we're more benevolent. Dollar for dollar we're actually pretty damned stingy. In comparison to percentage of wealth we don't particularly stand out as the role model we like to make ourselves out to be. So, I guess it's true—You don't get rich by giving your money away.
Another question arises when we consider the effectiveness of our foreign aid dollars. With the policy of tying US strategic and economic interests in with the allocation of funds and foreign development, I wonder just how much the rest of the most needy people in the world would miss the loss of US foreign aid dollars.
When we attach strings to our charity to insure that the financial interests of our own business community is served we are not necessarily doing the world a favor. With modern “free market” theories some of us may feel that it's our money, and we can attach whatever strings we like. After all, they can choose to take the money, or not. But, tell that to the people of a poor nation trying to fight an epidemic disease when they can't maximize the cost to benefit ratio because they're forced to buy overpriced medicine just to qualify for the aid package. For these poor people, this is not the “free market” in action, but the cruelest form of blackmail.
Let's not forget that they could care less about patent rights. They're more interested in just staying alive. This seems to give the world the impression that the US and some other countries are more interested in profits than whether they live or die.
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What would Europe and Japan look like at this moment if the US hadn't forgiven debts and helped reconstruction?
I don't know, but does anyone believe that we would have been better served not to help in the reconstruction? These nations are, after all, among our strongest trading partners. But, maybe we would have been better off to leave them for the eastern block nations. Nevertheless, the Marshall Plan originally would have given aid to Eastern Europe too, but Stalin didn't quite trust us. As for Western Europe, the aid we provided through the Marshall Plan went back to the US in materials and services helping to keep alive our new super-industrialized economy. Once Western Europe was back on it's feet, it continued to buy our agricultural and manufactured goods helping to turn us into the world's largest economy.
By the way, if we tried to pull Japan's WWII reconstruction debt they'd probably think we were absolutely insane. It seems that they own a significant portion of our debt these days. China isn't far behind, and this trend is http://www.americaneconom |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 08:42:23 [Permalink]
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America has engaged in stupid foreign policy for as long as I have been voting. Longer, for sure. We have propped up really bad guys as leaders of other countries for short-term gains here. (The Shaw of Iran, General Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, just to name a few. Often we turn on them when they become a liability to us. Saddam and Noriega are pretty good examples of that. So is the Taliban.)
Lately, we have unleashed the Neo-Cons and their foreign policy delusions of a Pax Americana. Empire building is the name of that tune.
I'm sorry, But I fully understand why the rest of the world might be on guard and feeling like they have something to fear with regard to American foreign policy.
What needs to be made clear is that many of us oppose these policies. (And yet, I doubt that many Americans even understand the reasons why other countries are having any anxiety about us. We are taught that we are a pretty wonderful country in our primary schools. We are generous and believe in democracy. How bad can that be?) Sigh…
We are a wonderful country in many ways. We are also incredibly stupid in other ways. Honestly speaking, we are a mixed bag. But we are a very powerful mixed bag. And that makes us dangerous. Our stocks dropped considerably in the eyes of the rest of the world when we invaded Iraq for all the wrong reasons. (Again, Pax Americana.) Hell, our government had to lie to its own citizens to justify that invasion. Before we invaded Iraq, we had most of the world behind us in our fight to eliminate terrorism. We managed to blow much of the goodwill from those countries that rallied to our support after 9/11.
I could go on. I can't defend what we do. Not lately. I can only point out that there is considerable opposition to what we are doing right here. The closeness of the last elections should be an indication of that to the rest of the world. But still, they have to deal with us as we are and not as we might have been…
Hopefully, we will be able to turn that around in a few years. In the arena of geo politics, nothing is forever.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 12:09:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
I singled out USA in this instance because you were boosting for USA with claim that was quite inaccurate except from a very narrow point of view.
What I consider arrogant is you claiming USA rock, and even when faced with evidence to the contrary, refuse to acknowledge that evidence.
Listen, if you want to engage in infantile sematics games in order to manufacture a fallacious reason to rationalize you current dislike of America.... carry on. You are doing a fine job.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 12:59:01 [Permalink]
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Easy people. I don't want to cause any splits HERE!
I can see why both Dude and Doc Mabuse are getting upset here. I think that Kil's last post may help to put some persepctive here.
I think that we all should calm down and realize that even though the current american gov't is doing stuff we (and I include about half of the americans themselves in this) don't like, one should be careful to avoid generalizing, since that leads to bad feelings and alienation on both sides, even though many americans agree with non-americans about Bush's policies.
The point in my starting this thread was as a warning about what that kind of attitude can lead to, with that letter being an example of the result. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 17:49:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I singled out USA in this instance because you were boosting for USA with claim that was quite inaccurate except from a very narrow point of view.
What I consider arrogant is you claiming USA rock, and even when faced with evidence to the contrary, refuse to acknowledge that evidence.
Listen, if you want to engage in infantile sematics games in order to manufacture a fallacious reason to rationalize you current dislike of America.... carry on. You are doing a fine job.
I have no need to manufacture reasons, fallacious or otherwise. Your arrogant attitude represents only one of many reasons. I can't say if it's pride or an over-abundance of patriotism (that seems all too common among Americans) than blinds you to the various reasons of my dislike of the US.
When you made the unfortunate statement about the Foreign Aid ( You wrote: "The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No."), did you really believe that America was as great as you said it was? I certainly got that impression, and it was that arrogance that prompted me to engage in the pissing contest over it. Had you just admitted that comment was a rash statement, I wouldn't have made such a fuzz about it. Now you accuse me of "engage in infantile sematics games". What I see is an attempt by you to change the subject.
Dude, you seem to get upset when you are faced with views and opinions that puts your country in worse light than your own image of it. And you lash out accordingly. For several posts I've begged you to examine a little closer the page BigPapaSmurf linked to. The one that exposes America as not-the-greatest foreign aid giver.
I recall you getting equally upset once before when we were discussing Michael Moore.
USA refused for a long time to sign the Kyoto agreement on environment protection, and reduction of green-house gasses. Now it turns out that the US government has secretly worked out another environment deal with a few other "bad apples" when it comes to green house gasses: China and India, behind the backs of the rest of the Kyoto participants. The rest of the world needed USA to sign Kyoto in order to pressure China to do the same. If USA and China refuse to stop the increased usage of fossil fuel, it won't matter one iota if the rest of the world starts using renewable energy sources. Together with Australia, India, and South Korea, you make up 40% of the worlds release of green-house gasses. No matter how advanced filtering technology you use, coal and oil are still fossil fuels.
I don't hold you personally responsible for this, Dude. And even if the Clinton Administration had signed the Kyoto deal, G.W. Bush would have pissed all over it.
Of the pertinent things Kil wrote, I'd like to stress his point that after the 9/11 attack, you had most of the rest of the civilised world supporting your fight against terrorism. Including my support, if you disregard the idiotic dichotomy presented by Bush, the infamous "with us or against us". It was such a transparent attempt to rally support for a Cart Blanche to fight his war, it wasn't even funny. Obviously the American public majority bought it though, and the opposition haven't gotten large enough yet to change the policy. The Patriot Act is still active, there are still illegally detained people on Guantanamo Base, denied due process.
I have little faith left that enough people will stand up for what's good and decent to make a difference, especially after Bush stole his second term.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 22:44:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have no need to manufacture reasons, fallacious or otherwise. Your arrogant attitude represents only one of many reasons. I can't say if it's pride or an over-abundance of patriotism (that seems all too common among Americans) than blinds you to the various reasons of my dislike of the US.
Does Fred Phelps piss you off when he says all Sweds are animal fucking faggots destined to burn in hell? (the guy pisses me off when he says it)
When you make blanket statements about the US, you are being irrational. Step back and apply a bit of skepticism.
Don;t you really mean that your pissed off at US fundamentalists? Or US right wing politics? (the two are almost inseperable these days, I know)
There are plenty of us here now that think the current US policy is entirely undefensible, that Bush and his admin are war criminals, and some are treasonous felons. The entire country is not to blame, however.
Those blanket statements will only elicit one of two responses from me, ever. Either I just ignore you for the ignorant and uninformed asshole (aka Phelps) you are, or I turn around and tell you to go fuck yourself. As a person who's family has fought for this country for the last 100 years, and who has done so, honorably, himself, I have a certain investment in this nation. Am I a crazed nationalist? Fuck no. If I ever had 60 seconds alone with the current excuse for a president his ears would burn for a week with the dressing down he'd recieve.
So, if you want to make them, then you will just have to live with the response you get.
quote:
When you made the unfortunate statement about the Foreign Aid ( You wrote: "The US spends massive ammounts of money, time, and resources in the cause of aiding other countries. Can any other nation say they do even close to as much as we do? No."), did you really believe that America was as great as you said it was? I certainly got that impression, and it was that arrogance that prompted me to engage in the pissing contest over it. Had you just admitted that comment was a rash statement, I wouldn't have made such a fuzz about it. Now you accuse me of "engage in infantile sematics games". What I see is an attempt by you to change the subject.
My participation in this thread is at and end. How's that for a change of subject.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 00:21:51 [Permalink]
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| Dude, it's painfully obvious that you made a mistake. It's not a big deal. Own up to it and move on. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 00:40:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Dude, it's painfully obvious that you made a mistake. It's not a big deal. Own up to it and move on.
Well, the USA does give the most foreign aid of any other country. It just isn't proportionally the most. That doesn't make Dude wrong.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 06:51:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Dude, it's painfully obvious that you made a mistake. It's not a big deal. Own up to it and move on.
Well, the USA does give the most foreign aid of any other country. It just isn't proportionally the most. That doesn't make Dude wrong.
No, he implied other countries did much less than the US (or didn't do anything at all), disregarding the sheer mass of the country.
Then he argued that Europe and Japan would be fucked up without US. Which is true. But US wouldn't even exist without France. Of if the english people didn't decide they had enough of England. We can using this I-helped-you argument all the way back to Rome and get nowhere with it. True, US gets brownie points for helping Europe and Japan. Brownie points also for the science, for the space program, for everything good that has been done, which is no doubt pretty much a lot.
Doesn't erase everything bad that has been done, though. Sorry.
Anyway, he's *obviously ignoring everything else in Mab's posts - and since Mab and Kil put it much better than I could, I'll just shut up. Nevertheless - it's not a question of hating the people in the country (in my case, not even hating at all, nor does my country, which is known to be friendly to any foreigner within its borders regardless of origin), it's a matter of being AFRAID of the time when they'll decide our government is corrupt and blow us up for our natural resources, or just put someone more... um... agreeable in it, such as Pinochet.
This is not something from today, it's something that has been evolving for a long time. As Yoda would say, fear is the path to the dark side. Well, guess what, the rest of the world is marching there, with each risible war that there is, started for no particular reason.
* I should read what I write. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 07/31/2005 14:05:33 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 10:45:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
That doesn't make Dude wrong.
Only from a very narrow mindset. It's pretty clear that Dude was suggesting that the US is more generous than most other countries. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 10:52:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Anyway, he's oblivious obliterating everything else in Mab's posts - and since Mab and Kil put it much better than I could...
Siberia, can you please rephrase this sentence?
I'm having trouble making sense of it.
@}-,-- |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 11:31:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Siberia, can you please rephrase this sentence?
I'm having trouble making sense of it.
I think she means, "Anyway, he's obviously ignoring everything else in Mab's posts... " |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 14:04:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Siberia, can you please rephrase this sentence?
I'm having trouble making sense of it.
I think she means, "Anyway, he's obviously ignoring everything else in Mab's posts... "
Yep, that's what I meant.
Sorry, twas too early in the morning. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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