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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2005 :  05:11:45  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8917093/

Good thing they wasted so many years of our time, now the GW is self sustaining.

I say we hang em' then we kill em'! YEAH!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

astropin
SFN Regular

USA
970 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2005 :  09:33:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send astropin a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I say we hang em' then we kill em'! YEAH!



Biker #3: Pee-wee's Big Adventure (1985)

I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.

You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.

Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.

Infinitus est numerus stultorum
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2005 :  00:57:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
Well,

This will start a whole new round of new arguements I am sure.

Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2005 :  01:40:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by skepticality

Well,

This will start a whole new round of new arguments I am sure.

It's not a new tactic by any means, but the refrain I hear more and more is "Yes, the Earth is warming, but we don't have enough information to tell whether this cycle is natural or if humans or having an impact...or to what extent." This way repubs can admit global warming is a reality, but further stall on actually doing anything about it.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2005 :  07:05:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

quote:
Originally posted by skepticality

Well,

This will start a whole new round of new arguments I am sure.

It's not a new tactic by any means, but the refrain I hear more and more is "Yes, the Earth is warming, but we don't have enough information to tell whether this cycle is natural or if humans or having an impact...or to what extent." This way repubs can admit global warming is a reality, but further stall on actually doing anything about it.



It is true that the figures aren't yet stable for the part we play in global warming, but what the hell difference does that make? Heat is heat, the glaciers are melting, and our 'leaders' have their heads stuck in air-conditioned sand that is running through the solar hourglass like quicksilver. It is time and past time for some serious research into solutions for it.

But, we will doubtless wait until you can fry an egg on the belly of your cat before anyone comes up with the funding.

Idiots.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2005 :  14:26:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

...now the GW is self sustaining.
I don't think that global warming is self sustaining just yet. If we were to completely halt our production of greenhouse gasses today, I'll bet that would trigger a mini-iceage within a century or so.

I'm also somewhat skeptical that we are likely to trigger a runaway greenhouse effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the earth have a much higher temperature and much higher C02 levels for millions of years during and after its formation?

I'm not defending the status quo here. Global warming is a problem. I'm just trying to clarify the kind of problem that it isn't.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  01:31:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the earth have a much higher temperature and much higher C02 levels for millions of years during and after its formation?



Sure.

You'll also note that such an environment isn't all that hospitable to H. sapiens.

No one can say what the overall impact of global warming will be. At best we can guess. However, there is a strong correlation with change in environment and extinction. Humans seem to think that such things don't apply to us.

If our actions are responsible for the warming, or even contribute to it, then (now that we understand what is happening and have the ability to stop our contribution) we have a responsibility to stop.

I'd be happy with a plan (even a 25 or 50 year plan) to end the use of hydrocarbon fuels. It is within our ability to do it. But as long as hydrocarbons are the basis of the most profitable industry on the planet, we will prob never see such a thing.

As the saying goes... Money talks.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  05:22:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
There are huge amounts of greenhouse gasses stored in the permafrost, frozen peat bogs and polar ice. If we stopped today* the current warming would continue to free this store...

*we have increased every year even with the knowledge of the GW threat, so this is extremely hypothetical. Now I dont mean permanent by self-sustaining though.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  14:19:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the earth have a much higher temperature and much higher C02 levels for millions of years during and after its formation?

Sure.

You'll also note that such an environment isn't all that hospitable to H. sapiens.
Obviously, yeah.
quote:
No one can say what the overall impact of global warming will be. At best we can guess. However, there is a strong correlation with change in environment and extinction. Humans seem to think that such things don't apply to us.
Too true. Burying our heads in the sand won't make the problem dissappear.
quote:
If our actions are responsible for the warming, or even contribute to it, then (now that we understand what is happening and have the ability to stop our contribution) we have a responsibility to stop.
Or at least reduce it. Stopping our contribution altogether may also have nasty consequences, such as triggering an ice age.
quote:
I'd be happy with a plan (even a 25 or 50 year plan) to end the use of hydrocarbon fuels. It is within our ability to do it. But as long as hydrocarbons are the basis of the most profitable industry on the planet, we will prob never see such a thing.
Well I guess that eventually we'll run out of hydrocarbon fuels, but failing that the only way I see of ending their use is to have an alternate scalable source of cheap energy. Currently none exists in sufficient quantity. At the present time nuclear, hydro and geothermal energy are the only alternative sources of cheap energy that I know of, and of these three only nuclear power is truly scalable.
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  14:30:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

There are huge amounts of greenhouse gasses stored in the permafrost, frozen peat bogs and polar ice. If we stopped today* the current warming would continue to free this store...

*we have increased every year even with the knowledge of the GW threat, so this is extremely hypothetical. Now I dont mean permanent by self-sustaining though.
Okay yeah, I thought that you were referring to the runaway greenhouse effect when you said that global warming was now self sustaining.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  16:46:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
the only way I see of ending their use is to have an alternate scalable source of cheap energy. Currently none exists in sufficient quantity. At the present time nuclear, hydro and geothermal energy are the only alternative sources of cheap energy that I know of, and of these three only nuclear power is truly scalable.


Wind

As I advocated in another thread, a responsible transition to renewable sources of power is surely within our ability to do... without sacrificing any of our wealth or convenience. Wind, solar, nuclear, hyrdo, geotherm (now that I know geothermal power isn't just fictional still, to cool), etc.

A combination of all these things can provide, I think, just what we need. Cheap, scalable, renewable sources of power.

That and take 10% of the money that the US has spent on our illegal war in Iraq and drop in in the lap of the world's top 50 high energy physicists with the instruction to bring fusion power to a commercial reality within 10-20 years.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  21:43:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
the only way I see of ending their use is to have an alternate scalable source of cheap energy. Currently none exists in sufficient quantity. At the present time nuclear, hydro and geothermal energy are the only alternative sources of cheap energy that I know of, and of these three only nuclear power is truly scalable.


Wind
Wind power is scalable. The reason I left it out was because I don't really think of it as being a cheap source of energy. The price has dropped dramatically over the last decade though, so it's definitly getting closer to making economic sense, especially for applications powered directly from the grid.

Currently the cost of wind energy is roughly two to four times (it varies depending on who you ask) as expensive per kilowatt/hour as the cost of energy produced by a coal power plant. But that's not taking into account the hidden costs of pollution and greenhouse gas emmisions, so in real terms it may not compare that badly.
quote:
As I advocated in another thread, a responsible transition to renewable sources of power is surely within our ability to do... without sacrificing any of our wealth or convenience. Wind, solar, nuclear, hyrdo, geotherm (now that I know geothermal power isn't just fictional still, to cool), etc.
I agree, although I think some sacrifices will probably be nessecary, especially when it comes to our vehicles. Driving will definitly be much more expensive, at least initially.
quote:
A combination of all these things can provide, I think, just what we need. Cheap, scalable, renewable sources of power.
Hell, even if it doesn't end up being quite as cheap, not trashing the environment has got to be worth something.
quote:
That and take 10% of the money that the US has spent on our illegal war in Iraq and drop in in the lap of the world's top 50 high energy physicists with the instruction to bring fusion power to a commercial reality within 10-20 years.
Well at least the EU, Japan and Russia are working on it.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  22:14:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
Currently the cost of wind energy is roughly two to four times (it varies depending on who you ask) as expensive per kilowatt/hour as the cost of energy produced by a coal power plant. But that's not taking into account the hidden costs of pollution and greenhouse gas emmisions, so in real terms it may not compare that badly.


I've had my eye on this TV for about 10 years. A 42inch widescreen plasma TV.

10 years ago it cost $14,500. It didn't have cablecard technology, nor did it have a built in dvr nor a HDTV reciever.

Today I can get all that (in a 50 inch screen, no less) for less than $5k, and it will be cheaper yet by christmas of this year.

My point...

Production costs decrease with increased production. As more and more demand for those wind turbines comes along, the production cost of the units should decrease as they streamline the process and get it as efficient as they can.

There may be some initial outlay, yes. But, as you say, it would be worth it to lessen the burning of hyrdocarbons.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2005 :  07:13:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

I've had my eye on this TV for about 10 years.
Off topic, but the above sentence creates what has to be the most disgusting imagery I've ever encountered on the SFN. [Shudder...]

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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