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 This guy has a funny idea of zero energy input
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  12:42:28  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
HyodrgenEnergy

This guy is trying to sell some BS patent, take a look.
(cough) quote "Extract hydrogen from water with zero energy input"

Does this make sense to anyone?
quote:
Claim 4

I claim the right for using this system in any purpose or for any use. This system is described as follows: The system consists of four closed cylinders. The first one supplies water at normal temperature. The four cylinders are connected at the bottom by a pipe with valves. The last three cylinders contain a piston connected to a spring to the top of the cylinders.

The constant of the spring and its displacement of spring 2 is higher than both spring 1 and spring 3. The constant of the spring and its displacement of spring 1 is between spring 2 and spring 3.

The sum of the displacements of spring 1 and spring 3 must be less than the displacement of spring 2. And the sum of the spring constants of spring 1 and 3 must be less than the spring constant of spring 2.By action of valves, the first one opens, then the second opens then the third opens with all the rest closed. You end with oxygen and hydrogen at normal pressure.

The three cylinders can be repeated (three cylinders linked to another three cylinders, etc.), until we have a pressure at the last cylinder that will liquefy hydrogen (the liquefaction point of hydrogen is different from the liquefaction point of oxygen).


Apparently it takes no energy to move the liquids and the springs.

He does take credit cards though.
[Edited to format link to work better - Dave W.]

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:27:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Hope springs eternal, eh? <snicker>

As fuel prices go out of sight, I think that we can expect a lot of this sort of thing, thank you Mr. Bush.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:33:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
I'm in for a sawbuck! Anyone else?
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trishran
Skeptic Friend

USA
196 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  15:03:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send trishran a Private Message
I've heard of this sort of thing being called "zero point energy". As far as I understand, it is theoretically possible that a tiny amount of energy exists in the form the supporters posit, but would probably take a lot of energy to access. One of the proponents is Puthoff, of Targ & Puthoff, formerly of Stanford Research Institute, where they were excited by their work with "psychics."

trish
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  16:24:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
"zero point energy" is the (currently imaginary) energy that underlies space. They use this fictional concept in some SciFi recently (Stargate Atlantis, on SciFi channel).

If this stuff is backed up by any actual physics or mathematics I am unaware of it.

Google up "zero point energy" and you will get several hits.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2005 :  06:10:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by trishran

I've heard of this sort of thing being called "zero point energy". As far as I understand, it is theoretically possible that a tiny amount of energy exists in the form the supporters posit, but would probably take a lot of energy to access. One of the proponents is Puthoff, of Targ & Puthoff, formerly of Stanford Research Institute, where they were excited by their work with "psychics."



That is different from the quoted text. This guy is claiming to have a device that will separate the hydrogen and oxygen in water (for fuel I assume), which requires no energy to be input to get going.

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tw101356
Skeptic Friend

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2005 :  09:32:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tw101356 a Private Message
I read the website. The Patent Office search didn't work for me regardless of browser. As best I can tell this device utilizes a manually operated valve to route hydrogen and oxygen into separate collectors. There's no explanation of how the water molecule gets split.

Maybe this character thinks Maxwell's Demon is going to do all the work for him?

- TW
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2005 :  17:13:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Okay, guys: go to the Patent Application search and enter 20040156779 for the number. That will return one result: this patent application.

Here's the gist of the method:
This invention consists of splitting oxygen and hydrogen of water by sucking water in form of vapor (the pressure above water is so low that the water boils at atmospheric temperature). Then, the vapor is further sucked (with lower pressure than the first cylinder). Then the vapor is compressed with a pressure higher than both cylinders because piston 2 has the largest displacement.

...The three cylinders can be repeated (three cylinders linked to another three cylinders, etc. . . . )until we have a pressure at the last cylinder that will liquefy hydrogen (the liquefaction point of hydrogen is different from the liquefaction point of oxygen).

Then we extract hydrogen (by pressure) and use it as a fuel.
None of this makes any sense. It talks about a low-pressure piston (low enough to vaporize water instantly), an even lower-pressure piston, and then a high-pressure piston, all going in a cycle of some sort which will either raise or lower the pressure (?) so much that hydrogen will liquefy (but oxygen will not - and it seems assumed that the hydrogen and oxygen will disassociate at this point), and this is done with - it is claimed - no input energy?

The other claims don't particularly make sense, either, as they specify that spring two will have a larger displacement and spring constant than itself, among other craziness.

And if you search for 20020170292, you'll find the first patent application. It is clear from this that the inventor considers turning a valve on or off to take zero energy. Ditto for lifting a 20-pound weight and putting it on top of a piston. It's also clear that he doesn't understand what the hell he is doing.

He thinks his "invention" is patentable, but I seriously doubt it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2005 :  22:15:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
He thinks his "invention" is patentable, but I seriously doubt it.
Do you have any idea how much it costs to apply for a patent? I was going to apply for one once. I just thought it would be something cool to hang in my den or to put on my resume--"inventor." But it costs like $5,000 to pay for all the legal fees and research and stuff involved. F that.

If he applied for patent, he thought he was going to make money off it.

P.S. I'll sell anyone my idea for $2500.

Oh, and P.P.S. You don't need to have a working prototype to get a patent. It just needs to be an original idea. The guy can get a patent (and probably will) without ever having to show proof of concept. Plenty of useless shit has been patented.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/20/2005 22:21:27
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2005 :  07:34:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
The company I used to work for filed several patents on my behalf for the work I did. It does costs quite a bit of money, but in the end I beleive that patents tend to be a waste of time.

A patent is only worth something when you defend it. It does not keep someone from building something that you think your patent covers. You have to go sue them, thus spending even more money...and the patent is only as good as the way the lawyer writes it.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2005 :  14:32:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
Liquefying hydrogen? Not bad without any energy input. Hydrogen boils at 20 degrees Kelvin. I'm not quite sure about the pressure needed to do it a room temperature. This guy must be a genius.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
Edited by - Hawks on 08/22/2005 14:33:11
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2005 :  17:30:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tw101356 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Hawks

Liquefying hydrogen? Not bad without any energy input. Hydrogen boils at 20 degrees Kelvin. I'm not quite sure about the pressure needed to do it a room temperature. This guy must be a genius.



Don't you actually just need to take all the energy out of the hydrogen? You could put the device on the table at a marketing meeting where I work. That would suck all the energy out in short order.

I still think this guy read about Maxwell's Demon somewhere and believes that it is real.

- TW
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2005 :  18:47:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
tw101356 wrote
Don't you actually just need to take all the energy out of the hydrogen?

The best way to get the chemical energy out of hydrogen is to combine it with ordinary molecular oxygen, creating... well, water, which makes the guys claim that he can "Extract hydrogen from water with zero energy input" quite absurd.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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skepticality
Skeptic Friend

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2005 :  23:58:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit skepticality's Homepage Send skepticality a Private Message
quote:
Purpose:

To split oxygen and hydrogen from water without energy consumption.


Sign me up...

I'd hope when someone in the patent office reads this, they laugh.

Derek Colanduno
host - skepticality
http://www.skepticality.com/
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26006 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  04:31:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Skepticality should interview this inventor.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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sts60
Skeptic Friend

141 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2005 :  05:50:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send sts60 a Private Message
Dave W. hit it - he's converting the potential energy of the springs into work. That is indeed energy input.

If he thinks the thing will keep going without further energy input, he's also wrong there. Friction losses alone will prevent that, not to mention the more fundamental laws of thermodynamics.

The USPTO accepts a lot of idiot patents, but at least you are now supposed to provide a "working model" when you apply for a perpetual-motion machine patent.

BTW, "zero-point energy" does exist, and has been demonstrated via the Casimir effect: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/casimir.html

The trick is to figure out a way to use it. As far as I know, only Syndrome figured it out, and he got sucked into a jet engine. (Shouldn't have worn a cape...)
Edited by - sts60 on 08/25/2005 05:51:35
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