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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
 Posted - 08/27/2005 : 18:54:01
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I'm just going to rant here. Minority rights...where is the line? It seems that today in society we bend over backwards to make everything right and make everything fair. Take African-Americans, for example. I am in no way racist...I have many black friends, but my question is this: when is our "debt" paid? How much longer do we have to continue to create laws that are in favor of minority neighbors in the name of equality, when in fact it is not making anything equal. What IS happening, however, is that the majority is being treated as less-than-equal. Also, Native-Americans. I am a Native-American, I am registered with the "Little Band of Chippewa"...big deal. I have NEVER been opressed or looked down on because of my race, so how is it fair that if I were to apply to a college or apply for a government grant, my chances of getting accepted or getting that grant would be greater than the average white male? How is that equal? I read something recently that made me think: White females I believe are now the majority of the population. Guess what that means? White males are a minority! So when do they get their slice of the minority pie? Or is it that equality is really not the motive behind it all?
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I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 21:00:52 [Permalink]
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"equality", in a social context, is a pipe dream.
But its worth trying to create a system that addresses wrongs and tries to correct obvious inequity.
It is sure as hell not easy, as is demonstrated by watching the pendulum now swinging into (I agree with you more or less) the direction of an overcompensation.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 21:48:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have NEVER been opressed or looked down on because of my race, so how is it fair that if I were to apply to a college or apply for a government grant, my chances of getting accepted or getting that grant would be greater than the average white male?
Does that still happen? I thought that sort of thing was stopped when everybody realised that it wasn't helping. What was it called again? ... "Affirmative Action"?
I agree with Dude, it's worth trying to make things "fair". But the way to do it isn't through charity. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2005 : 22:15:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
Also, Native-Americans. I am a Native-American, I am registered with the "Little Band of Chippewa"...big deal. I have NEVER been opressed or looked down on because of my race...
My mother's father was half American Indian (some New England-area tribe), which (given conflicting resources over the years) puts me somewhere near the borderline of being able to officially claim "minority" status. Perhaps, umpty-ump years ago, I should have done so, just for the college-admission benefits.quote:
Or is it that equality is really not the motive behind it all?
Since, as Dude points out, true equality is impossible, much of the overcompensation is probably just "guilt money" from those who think they're somehow responsible.
Last year, I was given some guilt money. When I asked a person much wiser than myself in these matters what to do, the answer I got was, "cash the check, fast." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 06:07:45 [Permalink]
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| I'm going to go out on a limb and say that when white males become a minority, there will be no affirmative action for them. (us since I'm 7/8 white and 1/8 native american (apparently the 1/8 that prevents the growing of facial/chest/back (not complaining about the back, mind you) hair)) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 07:24:08 [Permalink]
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Recently, they tried to implement a policy in Brazil where black people would have a separate quota in the number of admissions a college can have. I don't think it'll happen, though, because it was not only prejudicial (black people don't have the capacity to get in on their own effort?) and hypocritical (most of the poor population in Brazil is black. Public schools are awful and won't easily get your kid in college. So, instead of making schools better, give them a free pass into college!) but also impractical.
Companies have to hire a quota of handicapped people, though, by law, and public colleges (which are the best in Brazil) usually give a separate admission exam to handicapped people, or at least more time to fill the exam, due to the physical limitation. Ironically, I didn't get into my current job through this policy. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 10:37:03 [Permalink]
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What debt to pay? You said "our debt [to the African-Americans]" and then you said you were Native-American. What debt would that be? Did Native-Americans somehow oppress African-Americans? And even if they did, why should you pay a debt for something you didn't do, to people who weren't your victims?
As for affirmative action, I don't believe it will change much. It might be so that in some cases, the employer would realise that a person with different skincolour is not necessarily a bad employee, and so a prejudice is shattered. But I don't think it will change much more, and it is problematic in that it is unfair too. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 13:40:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarrid
...I am registered with the "Little Band of Chippewa"...big deal. I have NEVER been opressed or looked down on because of my race, so how is it fair that if I were to apply to a college or apply for a government grant, my chances of getting accepted or getting that grant would be greater than the average white male? How is that equal?...
Me too. (My tribe is Chippewa - Ojibwa.) I could bascically pass for a whiteman in appearence. Back in my college days and on though job seeking experiences, if I selected "Native American" on the application they'd occasionally ask about the ethnicity of my parents. I never felt either aided nor held back for being "Native American" though I think racist attitudes still lurk in society, they seem to apply these days to everyone. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 16:06:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
What debt to pay? You said "our debt [to the African-Americans]" and then you said you were Native-American. What debt would that be? Did Native-Americans somehow oppress African-Americans? And even if they did, why should you pay a debt for something you didn't do, to people who weren't your victims?
When I said "our" debt, I was referring to the "debt" that is seemingly owed by SOCIETY, not by me. Since I am a part of society, it would be acceptable to use the word "our". Thanks. |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 16:10:37 [Permalink]
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| Does anyone else think this topic is far too obtuse? Racism is a huge and highly complicated issue, and many people have devoted careers to studying or trying to alleviate certain aspects of this social blight. Narrowing the conversation down to "minority rights" doesn't actually narrow it down that much at all, especially in the context of this type of forum. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/28/2005 16:11:12 |
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Jarrid
Skeptic Friend
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 16:28:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Does anyone else think this topic is far too obtuse? Racism is a huge and highly complicated issue, and many people have devoted careers to studying or trying to alleviate certain aspects of this social blight. Narrowing the conversation down to "minority rights" doesn't actually narrow it down that much at all, especially in the context of this type of forum.
You might just be on to something there, my good fellow. How about this: When is enough enough? Do we continue, as a society, to appease every single minority while leaving the majority to hang, or do we call it quits? I personally think neither of those are acceptable, but where is the happy median? |
I don't have to go swimming through an outhouse to know I wouldn't like it." |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2005 : 19:48:55 [Permalink]
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Jarrid wrote: <b>You might just be on to something there, my good fellow. How about this: When is enough enough? Do we continue, as a society, to appease every single minority while leaving the majority to hang, or do we call it quits? I personally think neither of those are acceptable, but where is the happy median?</b>
You seem to have entirely missed my point. To say that our "society" (there's a broad term) appeases "every single minority" (explain what this means exactly) is to make such a broad generalization that is almost meaningless. Our society isn't just one set of people with one set of rule makers and rule enforcers. One could easily give examples of when politicies like affirmative action were beneficial to racial equality and society as a whole, and examples of when such policies have horribly failed, such as when mandatory bussing broke up some African American communities, or when affirmative action has led to animosity on the sides of both majorities and minorities. But what is the goal of this conversation? What is its direction? Everybody is going to agree that racism is bad and that racism still exists to some extent in our society, and that it a difficult problem to solve, and that all the proposed solutions have their pros and cons. Big whoop. Are we going to address and properly analyze a specific issue, or are we only going to armchair philosophize about the issue in very abstract terms?
BTW, I'm pretty sure the term "fellow" is for those with a Y chromosome, which I do not have. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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