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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2005 : 15:53:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
And I agree that smoking often causes health problems, I just don't agree that it always does.
Does every single person who smokes suffer negative health effects? No. But so what? You can statistically demonstrate, beyond any doubt, that smoking increases risk, significantly. You can demonstrate, with hard numbers, that smokers (as a group) cost more to take care of than non-smokers, significantly.
You could, and I do, even say that ANY use of tobacco is directly harmfull, to some degree. Smoking alters your respiratory tract, even if it doesn't lead to diseases that need to be treated. Chewing tobacco burns the mucus membranes it contatcs. Same thing.
Routine introduction of nicotene into the body interferes with cellular processes even if it doesn't lead to addiction or physiological dependence.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 18:32:54 [Permalink]
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From Starman: Smoking do cause a serious threat to people with asthma. Not enough?
For what? Enough to ban smoking in all public places or just some? Enough to arrest people who smoke at home with children with asthma? What exactly are we talking about? This thread isn't specific enough. In the last thread on this topic, we were specifically discussing bar bans. This thread is too broad, and IMHO, can only eventually descend into curt and smartass remarks from individuals on both sides of the smoking culture war, such as this from Dry_vby: Oh, so you'd let me blow smoke in your face, would you? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/07/2005 18:34:02 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2005 : 23:50:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshurquote:
Would it be okay to charge higher premiums to overeaters, sunbathers, or drinkers?
I believe this is already being done. If you are in a high risk group, legal activity or not, you will pay higher premiums.
I prefer to by insurance that do charge high risk people higher, otherwise my premiums will increase because of their choices.
If you make your the choice, you should take the risk and you should pay for the consequences. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 00:15:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
From Starman: Smoking do cause a serious threat to people with asthma. Not enough?
For what? Enough to ban smoking in all public places or just some? Enough to arrest people who smoke at home with children with asthma? What exactly are we talking about? This thread isn't specific enough. In the last thread on this topic, we were specifically discussing bar bans. This thread is too broad, and IMHO, can only eventually descend into curt and smartass remarks from individuals on both sides of the smoking culture war, such as this from Dry_vby: Oh, so you'd let me blow smoke in your face, would you?
I find this thread specific enough: quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Do you believe smoking in public building should be treated as a public health hazard or a personal right and why?
I think that it should be illegal to expose others to tobacco smoke against their will. That means that you should not be allowed to smoke in a public building unless in a designated area, where the smoke does not bother other people using the public building.
As for people who expose their children. I find it despicable when people abuse their children in any way. Willfully causing your child harm should of course be a crime.
Now if you smoke without exposing others and don't support the immoral tobacco companies, go ahead! |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 01:47:09 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, you really should get a sense of humour.
They're not to hard to come by and won't interfere with your self-righteousness to much.
Btw, my arse says "hi".
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"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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| Edited by - Dry_vby on 09/08/2005 01:48:48 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 12:48:41 [Permalink]
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Dry_vby - Your calling me "self-righteous" and comment about your "arse" really only prove my earlier point.
And since apparently one must act immature to exhibit a sense of humor, I will now stick out my tongue at you. :-P nyaw. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/08/2005 12:49:19 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 12:55:24 [Permalink]
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Starman wrote: Willfully causing your child harm should of course be a crime.
While I agree with you that it is despicable to harm one's child on purpose (and in the conversation 2 months ago I actually called people who smoke around their kids regularly some fairly nasty names), are you saying that smoking at home around children should be considered child abuse? Do you have any idea what the consequences of that would be? The sheer number of kids already in foster homes now is staggering. Abuse in foster homes is far far more likely than abuse by one's real or adoptive parents. Not to mention the traumatic effects ripping kids from their parents and placing them with other people. Smoking around kids can indeed cause or worsen respitory problems. It can lead to long-term health problems. But it is not so severe a risk as to make smoking around one's kids a criminal activity because the consequences of that are far worse.
Just my two cents. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 13:59:13 [Permalink]
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Entire generations of children grew up with parents that smoked, and mothers often smoked during their entire pregnancy. Let's not blow this issue out of proportion. Smoking in the presence of others may be unpleasant for non-smokers, but to act like it's a crime is extreme.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 15:52:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Entire generations of children grew up with parents that smoked, and mothers often smoked during their entire pregnancy.
[lifts hand timidly] Like me? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 15:55:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Entire generations of children grew up with parents that smoked, and mothers often smoked during their entire pregnancy.
[lifts hand timidly] Like me?
Like my grandmother and my aunt.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 16:00:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dry_vby - Your calling me "self-righteous" and comment about your "arse" really only prove my earlier point.
And since apparently one must act immature to exhibit a sense of humor, I will now stick out my tongue at you. :-P nyaw.
Hey, you mentioned my arse first.
Don't stick that thing out at me, I don't know where it's been. |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2005 : 19:28:57 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: Entire generations of children grew up with parents that smoked, and mothers often smoked during their entire pregnancy.
Well, now wait a minute, lots of kids grew up with both minor and major respitory disorders because of that, too. Just 'cause lots of people did it (and still do it) and it doens't disable or kill kids doesn't mean it is OK. However,
Let's not blow this issue out of proportion.
I TOTALLY agree.
I'd also like to emphasize that the studies that show the health detriment of second-hand smoke are related to constant and long-term exposure in enclosed spaces. There isn't any evidence that I could find (when I was really looking for some 2 months ago!) that proves that smoking around healthy kids when you go out to a restaurant, or on the front porch, or just occasionally is detrimental to their health. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/08/2005 19:29:57 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 00:27:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Starman wrote: Willfully causing your child harm should of course be a crime.
While I agree with you that it is despicable to harm one's child on purpose (and in the conversation 2 months ago I actually called people who smoke around their kids regularly some fairly nasty names), are you saying that smoking at home around children should be considered child abuse? Do you have any idea what the consequences of that would be? The sheer number of kids already in foster homes now is staggering. Abuse in foster homes is far far more likely than abuse by one's real or adoptive parents. Not to mention the traumatic effects ripping kids from their parents and placing them with other people. Smoking around kids can indeed cause or worsen respitory problems. It can lead to long-term health problems. But it is not so severe a risk as to make smoking around one's kids a criminal activity because the consequences of that are far worse.
No, this is a straw man.
I have not said anything about sanctions or other consequences.
So what kind of damage is needed to call something abuse? Disability or risk of death only?
So here we have people who at this day, with the knowledge we have, are willing to risk long-term health problems to their children, only because they are to lazy to leave the room when they want to satisfy their drug habit.
How can that be allowed? How can this not be abuse?
Do you think this should be legal? |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 00:33:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
There isn't any evidence that I could find (when I was really looking for some 2 months ago!) that proves that smoking around healthy kids when you go out to a restaurant, or on the front porch, or just occasionally is detrimental to their health.
Even if something not is detrimental to anyones health that does not mean that it automaticaly should be legal.
Should people and kids with respitory problems be confined to their homes for the benefit of these drug users?
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2005 : 00:39:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Entire generations of children grew up with parents that smoked, and mothers often smoked during their entire pregnancy.
Lots of things have been legal in the past. What has this to do with anything? quote:
Let's not blow this issue out of proportion. Smoking in the presence of others may be unpleasant for non-smokers, but to act like it's a crime is extreme.
Its up to the legislators to decide what actions should be criminal. Many things have become illegal as they are unpleasant to other people. |
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