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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2005 : 17:07:51
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"Homosexuals, even those who are celibate, will be barred from becoming Roman Catholic priests, under stricter rules soon to be published on one of the most sensitive issues facing the church.
"The question was not "if it will be published, but when", a church official said on Wednesday, referring to the new ruling about homosexuality in Catholic seminaries. He said that while Pope Benedict XVI had not yet signed the document, it would probably be published in the next six weeks." (my emphasis added)
Read the rest of the article here: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gay-priests-face-ban-worldwide/2005/09/22/1126982182075.html
This is so disgusting, particularly because for years the Catholic Church has acknowledged that people cannot help it if they have a homosexual orientation. Thus, the Church teaches that gay people must practice celibacy. Many devout gay Catholics have, as a result, have become priests and nuns. This new rule can be called nothing else but hateful and bigoted, seeing as there is absolutely no logic to it. It holds that simply having a homosexual orientation makes one unfit to serve as clergy. It suggest that there is something inherently unclean about a person's unchosen sexual orientation, regardless of how that person acts on their orientation.
When I was in High School I had to read a chapter on gays in a book called "Sex and the Teenager". (Published in 1990 by Ave Maria Press.) The chapter was called "A Non-Choice: Sexual Orientation". Here's a few snippets from it:
”A person does not have a choice about his or her sexual orientation. Sexual attraction just happens – it's a normal part of our physical and emotional makeup.”
Yes, God made you gay, but he also insists that you not act gay. God's swell like that.
“Homosexual teens tend to have a greater than usual sensitivity to feelings, their own and those of others. They are often deeply spiritual. They ask deeper questions and are more serious about life than many of their peers. Homosexual teens tend to be self-directed and self-motivated and often excel in their studies, in athletics and in the arts. Many homosexual teen are leaders in their class or youth group.”
Gee, whaddya think the author was trying to suggest here?
“As a homosexual teen, you need to know most of all that the future is wide open to you. Homosexuality imposes some limitations on you, but these are certainly not insurmountable. Your life can be richly satisfying for yourself and a great gift to your brother and sister human beings. Be the good and beautiful human being you were created by God to be.” (Emphasis NOT mine.)
Yeah, some limitations, like you can't get married/partnered, can't date or have any romantic encounters, and now, can't even be clergy. World sure looks wide open to me.
This fucking new rule against gay priests is probably a blessing. No more Catholic walking the line, pretending to not be prejudiced against gays. Here the message is loud and clear - WE ARE BIGOTS AND PROUD OF IT!
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 09/22/2005 17:11:32
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 18:10:05 [Permalink]
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To me, this just puts Catholics back in line with the rest of the christian bigots and what is in the bible in the first place.
It is too bad that christians can't be honest with themselves and embrace all of the bible and the hate-filled bigotry (among all the other stuff) that is in it, or just get rid of that crap from the bible. Would definitely cut the bible down to size.
Once again, hypocrites. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 19:00:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Although work on the document began under Pope John Paul II, its release will be a defining act in the papacy of Benedict, a conservative who had said there was a need to "purify" the church after the deeply damaging sex scandals of the past years.
quote:
But the church official said that even celibate men who considered themselves homosexual would be banned because of what he described as the specific temptations in seminaries.
Those fools! Pedophilia is not specific to homosexuals and same sex pedophilia is not technically homosexuality. It's pedophilia! Gays are no more predatory than straights are. And probably less so, all things considered. Specific temptations? Try public relations… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 19:31:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
But the church official said that even celibate men who considered themselves homosexual would be banned because of what he described as the specific temptations in seminaries.
So the idea is that cloistering onself in a seminary full of men shouldn't be an enjoyable experience...
When are they going to start cracking down on lesbian nuns?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/22/2005 19:32:24 |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 06:46:34 [Permalink]
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| It's their club. They can make the rules. |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2005 : 23:33:26 [Permalink]
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I forgot liberals never sin!!! I guess they are sinners if they call themselves Christians, then its ok to label them bigots!!!
Heaven shake at its foundation if a Christian points out something they believe. Please do not bring the judgement of God on the land because you are gay. God is a Judge not us. To point out what the bible says should make man think!!!
In our current race to evolve past the bible and into the spirit world I suppose you must destroy, try and that is, your competition for world domination. In this age of Aquarius it makes complete sense.
Why shouldn't the preachers and ministers be the ones to condeme homosexuality? Do Homosexuals have their feelings on their sleeves. So easily hurt. Or is it an excuse to bash Christians of their faith. Can man disagree amongst himself or will the left judge a Christian because he does not approve of something unnatural.
Or can only Hedonist Leftist, who are afraid of losing Hedonist properties, be critical? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 01:38:23 [Permalink]
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Courseknot wrote: It's their club. They can make the rules.
Sure they can. No one is saying they shouldn't be able to make their own rules. But anyone should be free and even encouraged to criticize their bad rules, especially considering how much the Catholic Church pushes its weight around politically, seeks converts worldwide, and even seeks and gets public tax dollars in the US. (I went to a Catholic grade and HS that were both subsidized by the state of Ohio.) They aren't exactly a club that keeps to itself.
Verlch wrote: I forgot liberals never sin!!! I guess they are sinners if they call themselves Christians, then its ok to label them bigots!!!
What the holy heck are you talking about? The Catholic Church is an incredibly influential political force (24% of Americans are adherents), and because of it status as a large and long-established religion its leaders arbitrarily receive special respect that secular figureheads do not get. Remember the scandal that erupted from Sinead O'Conner ripping up a photograph of the Pope? Even liberals denounced her for that crime even though she made it explicitly clear that she was doing so as a political statement.
The Catholic Church has opened itself wide open to criticism through constant worldwide proselytizing, political lobbying and fraternizing, and acceptance of public funds.
You'll never hear me bitching about the Amish - they don't bother anyone.
I got a question: If the Catholics suddenly came out and said blacks couldn't be priests, and I got up here and called them bigots, would you have responded the same way?
Why shouldn't the preachers and ministers be the ones to condeme homosexuality?
Did you even read my whole post? The Catholic Church doesn't officially condemn homosexuality. They acknowledge homosexual orientation is not an individual's choice, but then turn around and condemn homosexual sex. And now, to add injury on to insult, they also forbid celibate gay men from being clergy! I should also mention that they do all this without any clear theological explanation of why, if homosexual orientation is natural, homosexual sex should be forbidden, and in the face of Catholic theologians who have argued for decades that homosexuals should be able to have sex within the framework of a lifetime partnership.
Do Homosexuals have their feelings on their sleeves. So easily hurt.
Um, yeah, I'm thinking all the gay Catholic priests who have been faithfully serving their congregations for years are going to be pretty put out by this. As are all the young gay men who were planning on becoming priests, you know, since their religion says they have to be celibate anyway. And all the gay Catholics who take sides with the liberal theological interpretations are certainly going to see this as a further step toward total ostracizing them. Not to mention it strengthens the unfounded notion that gay men are more likely to be pedophiles, since the Church is obviously doing this partially in response to the sex scandals.
Or is it an excuse to bash Christians of their faith.
Perhaps that is a motivation of some here. I cannot say since I cannot read their minds. Most of my family is Catholic, and as an atheist I spent years defending the Catholic Church as having the potential to be a leader is religious progress. Alas, with the appointment of this new pope and what seems to be following, they are clearly backstepping and I've pretty much giving up on them. Currently I still have hope for Episcopalians – they have that great writer/Bishop John Spong. But even they are losing socially liberal adherents like crazy. Yes, it seems more and more people are being convinced that to be a good Christian one must also be a bigot against gays. And as long as there are gay people (some of which are my friends) who can lose their jobs for being gay, can't adopt kids in Florida, can't get married in 49 states, |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 05:26:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or is it an excuse to bash Christians of their faith.
You don't like the word "bigot"? Then stop thinking and acting like one. Only christian bigots are being "bashed" here...there are plenty of christians that don't fall in this category (though their numbers seem to be dwindling)...but to you I'm sure they aren't "real christians."
quote:
In our current race to evolve past the bible and into the spirit world I suppose you must destroy, try and that is, your competition for world domination. In this age of Aquarius it makes complete sense.
That is rich. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 09/24/2005 05:27:05 |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 05:34:20 [Permalink]
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The link makes it clear to me that the catholic church wants to clean up their act. Here's my take on it.
The link is says...
The ban would apply only to candidates for the priesthood, not to those already ordained, the church official said. The document did not represent any theological shift for the church, whose catechism considers homosexuality "objectively disordered", he said.
So this leaves the priests already ordained in the clear.
The link says.
Leaks from the document are are receiving praise from some Catholics, who say such a move is necessary to restore the church's credibility. But others say the test should be celibacy, not innate sexuality, and they predict resignations from the priesthood that would worsen the church's growing shortage of clergy.
But their credibility will not be fully restored will it?
the link says.
Meanwhile, a grand jury in Philadelphia reported on Wednesday after a three-year investigation that two leading figures in the Catholic hierarchy, cardinals John Krol and Anthony Bevilacqua, deliberately concealed the sexual abuse of hundreds of children by at least 63 priests from 1967 to 2002.
The grand jury also found that the Philadelphia archdiocese kept 10 accused child molesters in active ministry even after June 2002, when all the US bishops promised to remove any priest who had ever faced a credible allegation of abuse. Two accused priests are still in ministry in Philadelphia, prosecutors said.
The scathing 418-page report vents the grand jury's frustration that it was unable to indict anybody. It says there is clear evidence in church files that Krol, who died in 1996, and Bevilacqua, who retired two years ago, "enabled and excused" abuse by transferring accused priests from parish to parish without warning parishioners or informing police.
So one could assume that the article is associating gay clergy with sexual abuse. It may be so in some cases.
I think the church has a long way to go to restore it's image.
It seems to me the church is under pressure to prevent gays from becoming priests. Where would this come from? I think the congrgations are mostly heterosexual couples with families and I think they feel homosexuality involves deviant behavior therefor I think a vast majority of congregations are prejudiced towards gays. I think they don't want the church, which they're a part of, to be associated with homosexuality.
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Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 08:32:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
CourseKnot:
So one could assume that the article is associating gay clergy with sexual abuse. It may be so in some cases.
I think the church has a long way to go to restore it's image.
As I said, this is nothing but public relations. Since gays are no more prone to being pedophiles than straights are, why not ban heterosexual priests too? All the church is doing is supporting the unfounded idea that gays are more likely to be pedophiles. So they are perpetuation a myth and solving nothing except bringing those who have bought into that baloney back to the fold. They are feeding the bigots to fill the plate. I bet there are some Catholics who will not return because they will see through this bullshit.
Teaching tolerance while instituting a discriminatory policy rooted in ignorance. Fools…
And yes, they can make the rules. They are allowed to show themselves for the hypocrites that they are…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 13:27:25 [Permalink]
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Courseknot wrote: So this leaves the priests already ordained in the clear.
In the clear from being fired. It doesn't change the fact that this is an insult that deepens beliefs that homosexuals are inherently sexual deviants or less in control of their desires. That is why priest's resignations are predicted. A priest takes an oath to advocate the Church's teachings. Many will not be able to do so under such circumstances.
Courseknot cited this line from the article: Leaks from the document are receiving praise from some Catholics, who say such a move is necessary to restore the church's credibility.
Yes, those are people who think homosexuality is connected to pedophilia, and the Church has just confirmed such bogus assumptions.
Courseknot wrote: I think the congrgations are mostly heterosexual couples with families and I think they feel homosexuality involves deviant behavior therefor I think a vast majority of congregations are prejudiced towards gays. I think they don't want the church, which they're a part of, to be associated with homosexuality.
The Church is supposed to be a more enlightened authority. They are not supposed to confirms fears that they know to be false. The sex scandal has to do with the Catholic Church's reckless dealings with individual perpetrators. They hid the accusations from the secular law enforcement and congregations because they didn't want to tarnish their reputations and they foolishly thought they could reform those priests. It has nothing to do with homosexuality, and now the Church leaders are knowingly using homosexuals as a scapegoat so they won't have to bear all the responsibility for what has happened. That is despicable and they should be called on it.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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