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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2005 : 08:36:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
It would be conclusive that some "God" is desperate to be recognized. The real God, he ain't desperate.
Nice try at changing the subject, markie. Of course, in doing so, you demonstrate the weakness of your faith.quote:
Or maybe aliens were projecting a visual holographic field around the planet....
Sure, some unreasonable people will demand that instead of a miracle from God, the re-arrangement of stars would be a miracle due to aliens (such an "explanation" would just make me ask, "why the hell would aliens pretend to be God?"). Thanks for helping me prove my point to you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:00:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia Moving past the supermaterial part (since we don't know if such brand of material exists), the soul:
Evolves, as all ordinary material lifeforms;
Breeds, using its brain substrate as its vector;
Somehow survives after the dissolution of said substrate.
So, the soul, if such creature exists, is a 'supermaterial' (whatever that means) virus?
A virus often does harm to it's host, whereas the soul does not. The soul is the preserver of values of eternal import which have registered in the mind during biological life. Much unlike a virus.
Usually, maybe often, but it's not imperative for a virus, to be a virus, to do harm to its host. Some bacteria certainly do harm and some don't. You certainly wouldn't even be able to live without some of the bacteria inside of you.
It's not unreasonable to think a virus could do 'good'...
(Though good and harm are quite relative, and I'm sure some rainforests would rather prefer humans to not have a conscience, lest they had the power to prefer anything - maybe they weren't infected? Or maybe they can prefer things and just can't act to their wishes. Who knows? Especially with supermaterial viruses running around the universe and randomly triggering soul effects in regular material molecules assembled in curiously Hominid forms... but I digress.)
A virus made of such rare fabric as 'supermaterial' is, whatever it is, if it even is at all, could do 'good' rather than 'harm'. Why not? It's a possibility and, in my own humble opinion, far more logical than random gods creating life in random planets for no particular reason, or reasons obscure enough to make us think there's no reason at all.
Not that I believe there is such a thing as a soul. Or supermaterial beings, whatever the hell they are. Or any point in being alive and sentient. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:08:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by markie
It would be conclusive that some "God" is desperate to be recognized. The real God, he ain't desperate.
Nice try at changing the subject, markie. Of course, in doing so, you demonstrate the weakness of your faith.
??? That I don't believe that God would do such a thing is a weakness in my faith? George Bush is into 'shock and awe' to overwhelm the will of those exposed. I just don't think God is into that. It 'demonstrates' my theology, not my lack of faith.
quote:
Or maybe aliens were projecting a visual holographic field around the planet....quote:
Sure, some unreasonable people will demand that instead of a miracle from God, the re-arrangement of stars would be a miracle due to aliens (such an "explanation" would just make me ask, "why the hell would aliens pretend to be God?"). Thanks for helping me prove my point to you.
Well I'm imagining the scenario that those same aliens would transmit further intructions on their holographic stars image like, "I am sending a race from another planet. Receive them with open arms. Thus saith your God."
(I must admit this is getting pretty fun! Actually, I am *quite* open to the possibility that a clearly off-planet being(s) could arrive and instruct us on matters pertaining to advancing civilization and the God quest across a civilized, evolving cosmos. There is that enough faith for ya? :) )
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:32:22 [Permalink]
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| Man how lame would that be Aliens show up and make us go to church on Sunday. Not as bad as the aliens from the movie Signs though. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:36:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia It's not unreasonable to think a virus could do 'good'...
(Though good and harm are quite relative, and I'm sure some rainforests would rather prefer humans to not have a conscience, lest they had the power to prefer anything - maybe they weren't infected? Or maybe they can prefer things and just can't act to their wishes. Who knows? Especially with supermaterial viruses running around the universe and randomly triggering soul effects in regular material molecules assembled in curiously Hominid forms... but I digress.)
A virus made of such rare fabric as 'supermaterial' is, whatever it is, if it even is at all, could do 'good' rather than 'harm'. Why not? It's a possibility and, in my own humble opinion, far more logical than random gods creating life in random planets for no particular reason, or reasons obscure enough to make us think there's no reason at all.
Whew, Siberia, and here I thought I had an imagination. :) Indeed some people actually believe that the 'ghost' of a person is a type of supermaterial life form which has patterned itself after the soul of a person, but it is something clearly different from that person's soul, which is unconscious until a 'resurrection' body is provided for it. Could it be that the universe is teeming with higher life forms which have little to do with us mortals? The truth may be stranger than fiction.
quote:
Not that I believe there is such a thing as a soul. Or supermaterial beings, whatever the hell they are. Or any point in being alive and sentient.
Yeah you may not believe there is a point, but your consciousness enables you to at least grasp the point in theory.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:42:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Man how lame would that be Aliens show up and make us go to church on Sunday.
Hehe, good lord I hope not. It would be more like a volunteer type of schooling program. Just think what written language has accomplished for us as a civilization. Perhaps there are other techniques yet unknown to us to help foster civilization, and an ethical one at that.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:50:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
??? That I don't believe that God would do such a thing is a weakness in my faith? George Bush is into 'shock and awe' to overwhelm the will of those exposed. I just don't think God is into that. It 'demonstrates' my theology, not my lack of faith.
No, the idea that a god which decided to leave such a message would be "desperate" shows just how much your conception of god is humanized, and really not god-like at all. You're unwilling to believe that God's motives for any particular action are unfathomable to us poor mortals. "God wouldn't do such a thing" just attempts to place limitations upon God so that God is more comfortable for belief. Solid faith needs no such self-pandering.quote:
Well I'm imagining the scenario that those same aliens would transmit further intructions on their holographic stars image like, "I am sending a race from another planet. Receive them with open arms. Thus saith your God."
Way to ignore the point. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 10:50:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia It's not unreasonable to think a virus could do 'good'...
(Though good and harm are quite relative, and I'm sure some rainforests would rather prefer humans to not have a conscience, lest they had the power to prefer anything - maybe they weren't infected? Or maybe they can prefer things and just can't act to their wishes. Who knows? Especially with supermaterial viruses running around the universe and randomly triggering soul effects in regular material molecules assembled in curiously Hominid forms... but I digress.)
A virus made of such rare fabric as 'supermaterial' is, whatever it is, if it even is at all, could do 'good' rather than 'harm'. Why not? It's a possibility and, in my own humble opinion, far more logical than random gods creating life in random planets for no particular reason, or reasons obscure enough to make us think there's no reason at all.
Whew, Siberia, and here I thought I had an imagination. :) Indeed some people actually believe that the 'ghost' of a person is a type of supermaterial life form which has patterned itself after the soul of a person, but it is something clearly different from that person's soul, which is unconscious until a 'resurrection' body is provided for it. Could it be that the universe is teeming with higher life forms which have little to do with us mortals? The truth may be stranger than fiction.
quote:
Not that I believe there is such a thing as a soul. Or supermaterial beings, whatever the hell they are. Or any point in being alive and sentient.
Yeah you may not believe there is a point, but your consciousness enables you to at least grasp the point in theory.
Never underestimate the power of a bored amateur writer at work.
Anyway, maybe, maybe not. I particularly don't care if there are supernatural viruses, bacteria or hummingbirds running around (though I'd like to see the latter, if such thing is possible - gotta love hummingbirds, even if they're supermaterial, which just seems to be another flavor of material anyway). Maybe there is such a thing as a purpose or maybe it's just random. We'll never know - meanwhile, I'll strive to make conscious, sensitive computers.
And just to keep up the spirit supermaterial virus:
quote:
Interestingly enough, the gods of the Disc have never bothered much about judging the souls of the dead, and so people only go to hell if that's where they think they deserve to go. Which they won't do if they don't know about it. This explains why it is important to shoot missionaries on sight.
- Terry Pratchet
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"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 11:28:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by markie
??? That I don't believe that God would do such a thing is a weakness in my faith? George Bush is into 'shock and awe' to overwhelm the will of those exposed. I just don't think God is into that. It 'demonstrates' my theology, not my lack of faith.
No, the idea that a god which decided to leave such a message would be "desperate" shows just how much your conception of god is humanized, and really not god-like at all. You're unwilling to believe that God's motives for any particular action are unfathomable to us poor mortals. "God wouldn't do such a thing" just attempts to place limitations upon God so that God is more comfortable for belief. Solid faith needs no such self-pandering.
lol! Dave you're starting to sound like me, only better.
(And Siberia, that Terry Pratchet is a blast, lol!)
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 17:09:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
A good blow to the head damages it. As it does, it also render you unconscious, until the body can repair the damages enough to restore consciousness. I submit that as pretty conclusive evidence that consciousness is the emerging property of a materialistically working connection of neurons.
Then...
quote:
Originally posted by markie
If by 'naturalistic' you mean strictly material mechanism then consciousness refutes such a view because consciousness cannot be 'explained' or 'deduced' by mechanistic processes alone.
So your answer is an argument from ignorance/argument of incredulity...
My assertion is that consciousness and self-awareness is an emergent property of the very complex interconnection of millions and millions of neurons in the brain. Why do you think that is so impossible?
The very complex flight patterns of a large flock of birds (or a shoal of fish) is the emergent property of only four simple rules (maybe five).
The very complex and beautiful pattern of a snowflake is the result of random assembling of ice-crystals according to the few surface areas they have. This is yet an example of emergent property.
The human brain is the most complex structure known to man, as far as I know.
Is it that hard for you to come to terms with the idea that 'mechanical materialism' or 'naturalism' can be the sole reason for consciousness and self-awareness?
Please take some time to read up on "emergent properties".
Wikipedia seems like a good start.
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by markie
The 'feeling' "I am aware", although dependent on material mechanism, transcends it. For instance, no one has derived the feeling "I am aware" from mechanistic first principles.
That sounds to exactly like the description of an emergent property: The behaviour trancends the sum of the parts.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/21/2005 17:13:36 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 17:27:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse Evolution does not have a goal, however, it will tend to adjust toward survival traits in a species.
Evolution having a goal is your religion talking. Evolution is mindless, following the path of necessity.
OK, evolution having a goal is my religion talking, but evolution being mindless is your materialism talking. You don't *know* it is mindless.
Necessity and mindedness are not mutually exclusive. Even the survival urge of attaining that which is necessary for life can be considered a mindedness.
Hmm... you got me there. Ok, how about "The mindedness-like result of evolution is an emergent property of change in the genome and natural selection"?
It is established that mutations in the genome are random, and that selection pressure are random too, but on a different scale.
Both are simple rules that act on a large numbers of elements (base-pairs, and the organism), and their interactions are showing patterns that are not inherent in each individual case.
No supernatural entity required for evolution.
Not even increasing complexity is a goal or aparent objective of evolution, however we should consider ourselves lucky that a high complexity gives us the opportunity to manipulate our surroundings, thereby increasing our survival rate. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 17:36:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Moving past the supermaterial part (since we don't know if such brand of material exists), the soul:
Evolves, as all ordinary material lifeforms;
Breeds, using its brain substrate as its vector;
Somehow survives after the dissolution of said substrate.
So, the soul, if such creature exists, is a 'supermaterial' (whatever that means) virus?
Siberia, this is a true GEM!!! 
It must be saved for posterity. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 18:06:40 [Permalink]
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Wasn't there some movie or story about a group of scientists that somehow "make life" (or maybe is was just cloning?), but since they weren't gods all the new people were without souls and came out like zombies? I seem to vaguely remember something like this. I want to say it devolved into a cheap horror story after that, with all these souless people being "open vessels" for various unclean spirits. It might even be an old video game plot line I'm recalling.
Anyway, I was reminded of it after reading markie's bullshit "theology."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 19:33:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Is it that hard for you to come to terms with the idea that 'mechanical materialism' or 'naturalism' can be the sole reason for consciousness and self-awareness?
Well I can certainly grasp the idea and can certainly understand why people would think that consciousness (and perhaps more generally the 'life' property itself) is strictly an emergent phenomenon. I just don't believe it. With predicted advances in computer AI and especially quantum computing in the next fifty years, hopefully I will live to see the emergent consciousness theory put to a serious test.
quote:
Originally posted by markie
The 'feeling' "I am aware", although dependent on material mechanism, transcends it. For instance, no one has derived the feeling "I am aware" from mechanistic first principles. quote:
That sounds to exactly like the description of an emergent property: The behaviour trancends the sum of the parts.
It would be interesting to know how much of those emergent phenomena can be simulated by computers using nothing but certain laws working on the component parts. I *suspect* all of them, at least for non living systems. Then again, I'm not sure if a computer today can predict, given exhaustive information regarding the properites of hydrogen and oxygen gas, the emergent properties of water.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2005 : 20:35:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse Hmm... you got me there. Ok, how about "The mindedness-like result of evolution is an emergent property of change in the genome and natural selection"?
Hehe, well it *sounds* good.
quote:
It is established that mutations in the genome are random, and that selection pressure are random too, but on a different scale.
Even here things get more complicated as you know. For instance certain environments favour certain mutations occuring, and certain segments of DNA are more prone to mutation than others. Furthermore, scientists are discovering that DNA is more dynamic than previously thought, it is more responsive to the environment than supposed. For instance a localized segment of DNA from say, a human epithelial cell may differ from one time to the next, depending on the subject's health, etc. (This is a recent finding of the last two years I believe.) Who knows if changes like this might actually be conferred to the germ cells, in limited ways.
Also, there is this analogy: consider the development and differentiation of cells from a single fertilized egg to the vast assemblage of speciliazed cells in the resultant organism. The orginal cell was 'endowed' with change potential, and those changes happened in an incredibly sophisticated way though development, resulting in a functioning multicellular organism. Now there is no doubt that random processes play a part in this process (maternal twins are different in small yet significant ways), but there is also no doubt that there is strong directional control involved, derived ultimately from the programming of the original fertilized cell.
To me this is an analogy to evolution: original life was endowed with change potential, not over a lifetime but over millions of generations of environmental flux. There is the expected variation due to random features, but there is also the strong directional component, where one change leads to a certain other change, all *seemingly* fortuitously, especially as it is spread out over so much time.
quote:
Not even increasing complexity is a goal or aparent objective of evolution, however we should consider ourselves lucky that a high complexity gives us the opportunity to manipulate our surroundings, thereby increasing our survival rate.
Which has interesting implications for using our 'complexity' to the ends of practising 'artificial selection', since 'natural selection' is hardly a factor anymore in our species. But that would be for another thread :)
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