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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2005 : 00:26:46
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For the last year or so, I've been reading and hearing a fair quanity of whining and hand-wringing over the Grizzly 50 Big Boar (that's not a typo), mostly from the anti-gun folks. This is a rifle that fires the big, military fifty calibre, machinegun round and is currently the most powerful sporting arm on the face of the planet.
I mentioned in another thread that I was going to fire in a new, homebrewed muzzleloader for the first time. During this excersize, at a private rifle range, I fired a big .50 belonging to a gunsmith/dealer friend. I would like to state right now that if I were an aspiring sniper/assassin, this would be the last rifle I'd consider for a wet project!
A brief description of the piece can be seen here.
This rifle has no stock as such. The breech is accessed by a bolt action just ahead of the butt plate and when opened, the entire butt comes off. On and behind the butt plate, which is quite thick, is a shell holder not unlike those found on reloading presses and the rifle is loaded by placing the head of the cartridge in it, and reassembling the butt by closing the bolt. This state of affairs makes for slow loading and puts the chamber much farther back than normal.
At over 30 pounds, this is not something anyone would like to carry around for any length of time, and as it does not break down, it can't be disguised by dropping it's components in a suitcase. And due to it's weight and bulk, it is not much of a field arm. Also, if you prefer not to shoot military ammo, and no one in their right mind does, as far as I know there are no reloading dies and presses made for it. Nor can one buy over-the-counter cartridges. Reloading gear would have to be homemade (not as difficult as one'd think). Duke, my gunsmith friend, has a huge amount of military ammo, all still belted for a machinegun, and that is what we fired.
Firing the piece is, well, an experience. Due to my arthritis, I was a bit leary of it at first. But the recoil is very mild -- my muzzleloader kicks harder. This is due to a huge compensator on the muzzle that absorbes recoil by channeling the muzzle blast out and slightly back. It works pretty well on the recoil, but results in the muzzle blast being felt by the shooter as well as any bystanders, and that muzzle blast is horrific. After some three rtounds, I found myself anticipating it, and you don't win shooting matches doing that!
I will say that the rifle is very accurate, and according to Duke, it only needed a slight cleanup on the trigger to make it crisp and match suitable, albeit a trifle stiffer than I prefer.
In short, this is not a sniper rifle. There are simply too many cartridges out there that will do that sort of job better and with less hassle. And due to it's bulk and weight, it is not a hunter's tool, either. The only thing it is suitable for is long range match shooting, and from my brief experience, I don't think that I could fire a 40 round silhoette match with it due to all that muzzle blast. It is unreal!
In sum, what we have here is a highly specalized and rather expensive rifle that only the dedicated match competitor and/or the brain damaged would want.
Wish I could afford one....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 09/26/2005 00:34:20
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/26/2005 : 04:36:18 [Permalink]
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| Is this the same rifle I saw on the TV that was able shoot through the hull of an airplane? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 05:27:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Is this the same rifle I saw on the TV that was able shoot through the hull of an airplane?
Well, not having seen the show, I dunno. With all of the attention it's had, probably. But almost any centerfire rifle will do that -- airplanes are built out of light aluminum, for obvious reasons. The fifty would make much bigger set of holes than most, o'course.
The big .50 will shoot with an enviable degree of accuracy, out to 1,000 yards, but it ain't all that simple. To hit reliably at that range requires a master marksman and a stationary target. The slightest movement of the muzzle, a mere fraction of an inch, could mean a miss by several yards at ranges of better than 1/2 mile. If the target, even one the size of an airplane, were moving, it must be led, adding more difficulty to the shot. Especally with this heavy cannon mounted on it's bipod (no one is going to fire this piece from anything but a rest of some sort, trust me on that).
Duke tells me that at 1,000 yards, with a muzzzle velocity of 2,200 FPS, the bullet drops some 30 feet. This means that you would be lobbing it up and over, keeping it in flight and vunerable to the wind longer.
All in all, in my opinion, the critisms of this rifle are a lot of hot air. It simply is not a very good terrorist tool, although terrorists are no smarter than anyone else, quite the contrary, and one or another idiot might try it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 05:54:16 [Permalink]
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The problem with hole size is that if the hole is small, it will do nothing to the plane (assume it doesn't hit fuel tanks, etc.) - meaning you won't have a sudeden loss in cabin pressure. If hole is larger, it is possible. This has to do with the size of the pump used to to keep the plane pressurized. Any hole too small will be compensated by the pump.
The program I saw (I think it was an "investigative" report) showed them put the door to a commericial jet at a good distance away, and they fired the shot which put a respectable hole in the door. Then they repeated, but this time put a slab of steel behind the door (not particulary thick mind you) and re-shot. The bullet went through the door and the steel. It was an impressive demonstration.
But I agree that the chance of someone being able to shoot a moving plane (most commercial jets rotate at over 120 knots) from 1000 feet with that gun even during takeoff or landing is pretty low. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 07:12:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
The problem with hole size is that if the hole is small, it will do nothing to the plane (assume it doesn't hit fuel tanks, etc.) - meaning you won't have a sudeden loss in cabin pressure. If hole is larger, it is possible. This has to do with the size of the pump used to to keep the plane pressurized. Any hole too small will be compensated by the pump.
The program I saw (I think it was an "investigative" report) showed them put the door to a commericial jet at a good distance away, and they fired the shot which put a respectable hole in the door. Then they repeated, but this time put a slab of steel behind the door (not particulary thick mind you) and re-shot. The bullet went through the door and the steel. It was an impressive demonstration.
But I agree that the chance of someone being able to shoot a moving plane (most commercial jets rotate at over 120 knots) from 1000 feet with that gun even during takeoff or landing is pretty low.
I'd like to have seen that test. What was the range and what grade was the steel, I wonder?
The reason being, my old Unlimited Class Silhoette pistol, chambered in 7 mm. Bench Rest, will and has blown through 3/8 inch mild steel plate at 50 and even 100 meters. Which is why most silhoette ranges use armor plate to make their targets -- compared to some of these pistols, 7-BR ain't all that hot. Damn, but I miss shooting that match...
What I think we have here is a program pandering to ignorance. After all, how many people actually shoot long range match? There's a lot that goes into it; ballistics study, burning rates of various powders, cartridge case specs, optimum bullet weights, and so forth ad infinitum. Most folks who hunt regularly don't know much of this stuff, and I've forgotten a lot of it due to not using it for a couple of decades. The average person knows none of it and cares even less about learning.
I find it sad that a remarkable (if clumsy and rather difficult to get along with) firearm is getting such a bad rap. It is strictly a match rifle, and will never be of any advantage for anything else aside from bragging rights.
Now that I know what to expect from the beast, I'm looking forward to firing it again, if I can talk Duke into bringing it out next time we go to the range.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 08:37:08 [Permalink]
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| The articles that I recall all expressed concern about putting a shot into the jet engine rather than the door. On the other hand, I also recall an article in Stars and Stripes from 1979 or 1980 where the USAF was concerned about a German farmer who was launching dumplings into the take-off flight path of Phantom jets using a homemade catapult. Kinda makes me think a terrorist would have better luck taking out a jet plane by using a truck full of pigeons and a firecracker at the end of the runway. |
- TW
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 09:01:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
The articles that I recall all expressed concern about putting a shot into the jet engine rather than the door. On the other hand, I also recall an article in Stars and Stripes from 1979 or 1980 where the USAF was concerned about a German farmer who was launching dumplings into the take-off flight path of Phantom jets using a homemade catapult. Kinda makes me think a terrorist would have better luck taking out a jet plane by using a truck full of pigeons and a firecracker at the end of the runway.
Understandable certainly, but then we are now dealing with a much smaller, moving target and trying to hit it with a very cumbersome rifle. A 7 mm Remington Magnum would do the job a lot better, if the shooter was skilled enough to hit something like that at extreme range. Very few, including myself at my best, are.
I can also understand where the dumpling tosser was coming from. I too, hate the sound of airplanes. And catapults are neat but he'd been better served with a trebuchet. Those were the cannon of their age and a 200 pound dumpling smacking down the runway would be a sight to behold. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 10:40:13 [Permalink]
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And the search for Dumplings of Mass Destruction is on...
I watched a test at the "Superbox" at Aberdeen Proving Ground, a very impressive place and an armament-phile's dream. There's a vented box made of 4" steel plate, large enough to park an Abrams tank inside. Around the box is a dome made of inch thick hard steel. The target inside the box is backed up by about six of the 4" soft steel plates.
They told me that a DU round once missed the target, zipped through the 4" Box plate, through the 1" dome, and whistled merrily off to parts unknown. Once can see why they have a lot of acreage there. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 11:53:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
In short, this is not a sniper rifle. There are simply too many cartridges out there that will do that sort of job better and with less hassle. And due to it's bulk and weight, it is not a hunter's tool, either. The only thing it is suitable for is long range match shooting, and from my brief experience, I don't think that I could fire a 40 round silhoette match with it due to all that muzzle blast. It is unreal!
There are several rifles that surpass the .50 in accuracy at 1000 yards, and are capable of almost as much damage.
The .50 can punch through 6 inches of steel (using the standard FMJ/Steel core rounds) at ranges of nearly 1 mile, but as filthy said, it aint so easy to land that shot where you want it.
The 1000 yard range is the magic number for most longrange shooters, and the .50 packs plenty of punch at that range. If you are a skilled marksman you can obtain outstanding accuracy with a properly tuned rifle at that range.
Personally I'd use something closer to a winchester .300 magnum. http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SBST300&cart=MzAwIFdpbmNoZXN0ZXIgTWFn
At 500 yards its hard to miss, the rifle is MUCH less expensive (for a match grade rifle at that), and you can practice all day and not draw any funny looks.... and trust me, if you are someplace shooting a .50BMG, you will be getting funny looks.
Even at 1000 yards the .300 mag has ballistics that stand up to the .50, and would easily take out a jet engine... if you can make the shot in the first place. And, in order to make that kind of shot.... you will need to practice ALOT.
The .50 is a movie prop, imo. While fun to shoot on a range, I don't see much practical use for it otherwise.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 12:36:23 [Permalink]
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When a .22 will easily go through 3 layers of 16 guage auto body steel (first try), piercing the skin of an airplane wouldn't be difficult (so long as it can be hit).
And an explosive decompression test was done by the MythBusters. They sealed an aircraft, and pressurized the interior to nearly twice ground air pressure (to simulate being up in the air). Bullets through the windows and skin did nothing but let air leak out. It took some large amount of explosives around a window to make a big blow-out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 13:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
In short, this is not a sniper rifle. There are simply too many cartridges out there that will do that sort of job better and with less hassle. And due to it's bulk and weight, it is not a hunter's tool, either. The only thing it is suitable for is long range match shooting, and from my brief experience, I don't think that I could fire a 40 round silhoette match with it due to all that muzzle blast. It is unreal!
There are several rifles that surpass the .50 in accuracy at 1000 yards, and are capable of almost as much damage.
The .50 can punch through 6 inches of steel (using the standard FMJ/Steel core rounds) at ranges of nearly 1 mile, but as filthy said, it aint so easy to land that shot where you want it.
The 1000 yard range is the magic number for most longrange shooters, and the .50 packs plenty of punch at that range. If you are a skilled marksman you can obtain outstanding accuracy with a properly tuned rifle at that range.
Personally I'd use something closer to a winchester .300 magnum. http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SBST300&cart=MzAwIFdpbmNoZXN0ZXIgTWFn
At 500 yards its hard to miss, the rifle is MUCH less expensive (for a match grade rifle at that), and you can practice all day and not draw any funny looks.... and trust me, if you are someplace shooting a .50BMG, you will be getting funny looks.
Even at 1000 yards the .300 mag has ballistics that stand up to the .50, and would easily take out a jet engine... if you can make the shot in the first place. And, in order to make that kind of shot.... you will need to practice ALOT.
The .50 is a movie prop, imo. While fun to shoot on a range, I don't see much practical use for it otherwise.
The problem is bullet weight. The lighter the bullet, the more the wind will affect it. I think that when the .50 is finally, seriously handloaded for, it will be a very hard rifle to beat in the long range matches. The problem, I'm told, is that no one is making jacketed bullets for it and military projectiles are too inconsistant in weight. It only takes a few grains or so to change the point of impact radically down range. And at the pressures this cartridge develops, cast bullets will quickly lead the bore, even with a gas check. Duke says that he often has to clean copper fouling out of it. Bummer. I think that if it was me, I'd pull the bullets, weigh everything, then back off on the load a bit and work up from there.
I'd also shitcan all of the sabot and tracer bullets.
I have a dream of building another muzzzleloader -- after I finish the .36 calibre mountain rifle (someday) -- probably .58 calibre, for long range match (against other muzzleloaders, of course). Up till now, pistols have been my firearm of choice, but in my dotage, rifles have become attractive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 14:01:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
When a .22 will easily go through 3 layers of 16 guage auto body steel (first try), piercing the skin of an airplane wouldn't be difficult (so long as it can be hit).
And an explosive decompression test was done by the MythBusters. They sealed an aircraft, and pressurized the interior to nearly twice ground air pressure (to simulate being up in the air). Bullets through the windows and skin did nothing but let air leak out. It took some large amount of explosives around a window to make a big blow-out.
And even when the window was blown out the plan structer was still in good shape. It took a small shape charge to do any damage to the plane, in this test the whole back upper end ripped off.
A single bullet just doesn't do enough damage to cause the plane to crash. The only way I could see that happen is if it took out the hydrolics (a very lucky shot). |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 15:10:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem, I'm told, is that no one is making jacketed bullets for it and military projectiles are too inconsistant in weight.
Yeah, the mass production rounds are crap for accurate shooting. But at ranges of less than 200 yards it makes little difference, as the main use of the calibre for military use is full auto firing.
If I ever buy a .50BMG, I'll be shooting only rounds I load.
quote:
The problem is bullet weight. The lighter the bullet, the more the wind will affect it. I think that when the .50 is finally, seriously handloaded for, it will be a very hard rifle to beat in the long range matches.
Yeah. A 500grain projectile will be effected less by wind than a 180grain round will.
But the difference in effect on a soft target would be negligible. The .50 was really designed to defeat light armor and the occasional hasty fortification. With 15K ft/lb of force at the muzzle with that 500grain bullet.... no other rifle(that you could carry) really comes close.
I was just saying, that for a rifle to shoot at soft targets at long range, there are better options.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 15:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The problem, I'm told, is that no one is making jacketed bullets for it and military projectiles are too inconsistant in weight.
Yeah, the mass production rounds are crap for accurate shooting. But at ranges of less than 200 yards it makes little difference, as the main use of the calibre for military use is full auto firing.
If I ever buy a .50BMG, I'll be shooting only rounds I load.
quote:
The problem is bullet weight. The lighter the bullet, the more the wind will affect it. I think that when the .50 is finally, seriously handloaded for, it will be a very hard rifle to beat in the long range matches.
Yeah. A 500grain projectile will be effected less by wind than a 180grain round will.
But the difference in effect on a soft target would be negligible. The .50 was really designed to defeat light armor and the occasional hasty fortification. With 15K ft/lb of force at the muzzle with that 500grain bullet.... no other rifle(that you could carry) really comes close.
I was just saying, that for a rifle to shoot at soft targets at long range, there are better options.
Heh. If you ever get to fire one of these booger-bears, you will agree that all the of the options are better!
I'm sure that a somewhat lighter load would improve accuracy, if not making the piece any easier to get along with. It would also aid barrel life -- that copper fouling can't helping it. The bullet is being pushed too hard for the barrel diameter, and is eroding. And anyway, it would be a lot of fun working out a minute-of-angle loading, if proper components were available. I'll bet I could get it reliably shooting cast bullets (pure wheel weight alloy) without fouling, and still hit reliably, although it would make 1,000 yd. shooting more complicated by a much higher trajectory.
The more I think about it, the better I like the misreable thing.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 16:08:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
The more I think about it, the better I like the misreable thing.
I have considered buying one in the past. There are several small companies out there, and a few bigger companies, that make rifles in .50BMG
http://www.serbu.com/ Is local to me.
But here is a nice list of .50BMG rifle makers and ammo suppliers.
http://www.fcsa.org/vendors.html
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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