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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
 Posted - 09/27/2005 : 14:55:21
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You remember ... the woman who became the poster girl for Christians everywhere by talking the Atlanta courthouse killer into giving himself up through witnessing and reading from Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life". It seems there was a little more to the story, not that it will make any difference to the true believers. For some reason it took her seven months to remember this part ...
http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=65599
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 15:40:48 [Permalink]
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It has long been known that when trapped by a violent criminal, the best way to keep from being killed is to connect with the criminal through conversation, so the criminal can see you as a human like him/herself - which apparently makes it harder to kill a person. It is no surprise that there would be at least one instance in which the topic of such a discussion would include Christianity. What undercuts Smith's argument that it was her religion that saved her [even without the offering of crystal meth], is that there have been many instances of women saving themselves by talking to criminals about things that have nothing to do with Christianity, such as family, friends, or the criminal himself.
The crystal meth brings up another interesting issue: This lady worked at a courthouse, and yet she managed to do her job and use some amount of crystal meth. This brings up the issue of finding out who is using through random or pre-employment drug testing. If drugs so destroy a person's ability to be a productive member of society, why woud we have to test people to figure out who they are? Couldn't we just follow the trails of slobber to these pathetic creatures? According to the U.S. government's own figures, about 85% of people who use drugs in this country are never arrested [either for drugs or for other crimes], and the vast majority of drug users have full-time jobs. Plus the BBC reports that 41 of 45 toilet seats tested in the bathrooms of the EU Parliment tested positive for cocaine. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4685693.stm
It seems that the argument that drugs must be illegal because they turn people into criminals originated in the claims of criminals that drugs clouded their minds and made them commit crimes they otherwise would not have, and that they turned to crime to "support their drug habit." The first argument is self-serving, "I'm not really like this, get me out of jail." The second is patently absurd. Are all these junkies/methheads/druggies creating complex little budget plans in which they pay for their drugs with the proceeds of crimes, while using the money from their day jobs for food and rent? People whose brains are believed to be so addled that we don't even trust their observations while not actually under the influence? For example, the witnesses in the Blake trial weren't believed because of their "drug histories" - oh, and the gun was since found and connected to one of them and to Blake. And if this is our policy, that unrepented drug use makes one an unreliable witness, we'd have to free Manson and his followers, since the witness against them, Linda Kasabian, did acid with them many times.
Another annoying example of how drug policy actually interferes with criminal justice is Courtney Love. She was arrested for attacking a woman with a mic stand in NYC. There was no evidence that she was either under the influence or in possession of durgs during this assault. Then, she attacked a woman with a liquor bottle, with oxycodone in her pocket [but no evidence that it was in her system during the attack]. This woman is a violent criminal. The judge in NYC, in a case in which Love had no drugs and was not on drugs when she committed the assault, sentenced her to a couple of weeks of rehab [and if she stays clean a year, her record is expunged]. The judge in California sentenced her to a year of rehab. Ordering her to stay away from drugs doesn't seem to be changing the conditions under which Ms Love becomes violent. From the facts of these two cases, I'd say there is an argument to be made that society would be better off if Ms Love stayed home with a pile of morphine pills. In any case, if drugs were not an issue, and during a single summer a person attacked two different people with serious weapons, wouldn't you expect the person to do some time in jail?
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trish |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 16:01:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
It seems that the argument that drugs must be illegal because they turn people into criminals originated in the claims of criminals that drugs clouded their minds and made them commit crimes they otherwise would not have, and that they turned to crime to "support their drug habit."
Actually, my understanding of the argument is that dug users are statistically absent from work often than non-drug users and statistically suffer more health problems, either through accidents while impaired on the job or though later health effects.
It was the insurance companies who lobbied hardest in Congress for more severe drug laws since it was hurting their profits when insuring the employees of large corporations. Drug users who are wards of the state are no longer a drain on them.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/27/2005 16:03:08 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 19:46:34 [Permalink]
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| If all "recreational" drug-users who can control their use stopped using drugs, then the narcotics-economy would likely collapse. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 20:25:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If all "recreational" drug-users who can control their use stopped using drugs, then the narcotics-economy would likely collapse.
It's not going to happen though Doc, I happen to be a "recreational" drug user. I enjoy a joint on the balcony every month or so with a wine and good company as a way of relaxing....I regulary work 70 hour weeks. These friends are people that are in high stress jobs like myself and I don't think it affects my/our performance!!!
On the contrary, I think it helps!!!! (Maybe I am just trying to justify it.... )
However, that said, someone that has breakfast bongs before work is not going to be your model employee..... |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 21:02:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If all "recreational" drug-users who can control their use stopped using drugs, then the narcotics-economy would likely collapse.
Seems Man's been chewing, snorting, drinking, or injecting something or another since caveman days, and it's not going to end... although I think society and people in general would probably be better off if that happened. But as for what's legal and what's not, in his (first) book, (physician) Dean Edell noted "Which drugs are illegal and which are legal are based on political, not medical decisions" and that from a health perspective, he'd rather be a heroin addict than an alcoholic, if he had a sanitary and unadulterated supply.
RE Courtney Love, people with fame, and unlimited cash for big shot attorneys doing stuff that would land a "nobody" in the slammer and/or broke, then shrugging their shoulders and walking away laughing is nothing new or surprising. They don't have to live by the same rules as the common slob. Since I'm a common slob, I have to stick with coffee, and not hit people whenever "the spirit moves me."
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Ron White |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 12:10:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
It's not going to happen though Doc...
Yeah, I know it is wishful thinking. Still, I can dream can't I?
There's another problem I haven't managed to understand:
Some people get really fucked up by alcohol (and other drugs like amphetamine) - violent and abusive. They go around huring other people, some even get arrested for physically abusing others.
At some level they have to know that stuff like alcohol makes them insufferable violent pricks, so why do they keep drinking? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 16:23:19 [Permalink]
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If drugs so destroy a person's ability to be a productive member of society, why woud we have to test people to figure out who they are? Couldn't we just follow the trails of slobber to these pathetic creatures?
Excellent point. Anyone read Peter McWilliam's wonderful book Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do : The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country? You can buy a used copy supercheap on amazon, and it's a must read for anyone even slightly interested in criminal law. Hell, it's must read for anyone interested in what freedom means. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 10/02/2005 16:23:42 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 20:40:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
...so why do they keep drinking?
Doubt a rational answer exists... reasonable approximation I heard once- attorney in Boston said, "You know these guys that have 3 or 4 drunk driving convictions? You could make the penalty life in prison, and they'd still do it. There's something wrong with them- they have a disease."
marf RE book:
No, sounds interesting. I think the idea of encouraging a society where irresponsible drug use (abuse, including nicotine and alcohol) is discouraged to be a noble cause, but our experience in prohibition obviously didn't embed any wisdom as to how that end might be most sensibly pursued. Current drug policies are, in my opinion, both counterproductive in terms of how the manpower/expenditures could otherwise be applied to this countrys benefit, and destructive in societal and human health terms. The list of ways is too long to even attempt in a nutshell.
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Ron White |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 19:52:40 [Permalink]
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Not only does prohibition not stop usage [substances from coffee to tobacco have been punishible by every possible penalty, up to and including death], but prohibition creates huge black market profits, rarely seen in civilized countries outside of wartime. Alcohol prohibition, which lasted for about 9 years in the early 20th century, created enormous profits that funded organized crime into the 1980s. [and not a few gigantic mansions in NY, NJ, Connecticut, Nevada, Florida and Cuba].
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trish |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2005 : 16:52:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
Not only does prohibition not stop usage [substances from coffee to tobacco have been punishible by every possible penalty, up to and including death], but...
I don't advocate illegal drug use, nor so I use them, but imagine the tax revenue that could be generated through legalization and taxation, the cash savings from largely ineffective law enforcement efforts at deterring usage/sales/smuggling, prisons (more room for violent criminals) etc. etc. Could buy a lot of educational effort, rebuild disaster-ravaged areas, etc. etc. Cops through judges couldn't be corrupted through massive profits reaped by criminal organizations. Users would be healthier as they'd have available standardized and sanitary drugs, and wouldn't have to live lives of poverty and desperation, in many cases. How long can we afford this?
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Ron White |
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