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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2005 : 13:00:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My purpose for the quote is not important...
Then why use it?
and so what if I was trying to offend North Americans. They offend me every day.
Sorry to hear that.
Edit: and you didnt define your problem with it...
I find it offensive. I don't like being generalized like that. Some of us North Americans don't go along with all of our leaderships actions or ascribe to all of their policies.
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Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 13:19:18 [Permalink]
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Some people will only learn by experiance...
So, go ahead and give him your money markie.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 15:09:45 [Permalink]
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At least one group, ETI (Earth Tech International), has attempted to duplicate Dr. Mills work without success.
The group appears as if they would be amicable to Mills claims, as they state their mission as:
quote:
ETI is a privately funded research organization dedicated to the exploration of new frontiers in physics.
Our activities primarily center around investigations into various aspects of the Zero-Point Field. We routinely perform evaluations of reported "over-unity" energy devices. We specialize in performing accurate power-balance measurements using calorimetry.
However, the conclusion of this paper is as follows:
quote:
Our Mills experiment shows no detectable sign of excess heat. A 10% excess…less than any of the reported confirmations of Mills' experiment showed…would have produced a prominent positive signal in our experiment.
So they were unable to produce even a fraction of the excess energy Mills claims his apparatus can produce. Well, they probably didn't do the experiment correctly or something, since I'm sure Mills wouldn't have made his bold claims unless he was 100% certain they were true. Or maybe ETI is part of the cover up? So hard to tell these days.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/06/2005 15:15:34 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 17:54:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My purpose for the quote is not important...
Then why use it?
and so what if I was trying to offend North Americans. They offend me every day.
Sorry to hear that.
Edit: and you didnt define your problem with it...
I find it offensive. I don't like being generalized like that. Some of us North Americans don't go along with all of our leaderships actions or ascribe to all of their policies.
To me it looks like a keen observation. Truth can be a bitch sometimes. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 18:13:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Here's a site I've known about for several years now and just repaid it a visit:
http://www.blacklightpower.com
The brainchild of Dr. Randal Mills (sp?), it claims many incredible things, like using water for fuel, at energy levels between that of combustion and fusion. The claimed phenomenon - that there are electron orbital levels *below* that of which was thought of as ground state, may be responsible for what has been intrepretted as 'cold fusion' in some experiments.
So hydrogen is extracted from water, and using a catalyst is made to bond with other compounds, with an incredible release of energy, and resultant 'waste' (very stable) hyrdride-like compounds which are *entirely new*, environmenally safe, and potentially very useful to industry!
To top it off, Dr. Mills also claims to unify the very divergent aspects of physics today: Maxwell's equations, Plank's equation, DeBrogolie equation, Newton's laws and Special and General Relativity equations.
Mills also debunks the 'spookiness' which theorists have interpretted quantum physics as having. And much more.
And you can invest in the company! Lots to explore on the website.
Mark
So, Markie, now I am wondering why you posted this? And why you chose the Pseudoscience folder? Were you looking for conformation of our curmudgeonly ways? Is there a part of you that really is doubtful of Mills claims? If your intention was to ignore the warning signs pointed out to you, and become an apologist for Mills and his “renaissance man” ways, what do you expect from us? That we now stop being skeptics, stop using critical thinking, stop calling it as we see it, based on all the charlatans that have used the same style as Mills, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt? Are you at war with skeptics? With skepticism? With critical thinking? What exactly is the point of this little exercise?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 18:30:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
So, Markie, now I am wondering why you posted this?
You know, this has been bugging me too. Why choose a thread title like "Too good to be true?" and then act offended when people arrive at the obvious answer of "yes."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 20:26:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
For me, the Absolute Determiner says that all are worthy of respect.
For you. Wasn't that precisely my point? I give complete strangers a measure of respect, until I learn more about them. If they're conmen, the amount of respect I have for them drops. I never said it went to zero, and I'd probably do what I could to save Mills' life were it threatened and were I in a position to do so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold my tongue about what I see as an utterly disreputable, money-grubbing buttwipe.quote:
Ah, but he hasn't been shown to fool you even once yet and thus is not to be shamed.
The "you" was obviously a reference to the group of people who've claimed to have overturned the bedrock of modern physics.quote:
It behooves a skeptic to be skeptical of the mere 'appearance' and investigate more deeply.
And you know I haven't?quote:
You don't *know* if he's bilking them. Now, if an investor backs out and for good reason concludes he is being bilked, then your assertion has more merit.
Yet, I still wouldn't know. No, I've got a rather large probability of being correct, based upon history. You know that other aphorism, right? "Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it." The people who've invested in Mills' scheme have not learned history.quote:
Check it out, and there are obviously 'devices' where the reactions take place and 'excess' heat and light are generated and measured.
And many where no "excess heat" is discovered. What of them? Are all of Mills' critics incompetent?
At any rate, I went to Mills' Technical Paper Archive, and discovered that all but one of the links there is broken. The one working link takes one to another web site, not a technical paper. So, it's a little difficult to "check it out."quote:
I shouldn't have assumed such were 'prototypes' I suppose, because it is a huge step going from a laboratory experimental apparatus which is carefully nutured and fine tuned, to a robust commercial prototype where one flicks the switch and it is almost entirely self operating. *That* is going to be the most difficult and time consuming stage, and I suspect that is why cooporate investors appear to be patient.
These things have been around for years, markie. When is someone going to convert the "excess heat" into useful work (more than could be supplied by the input current)? That's all it would take to demonstrate the feasibility of this method of power generation.quote:
Why aren't there big press releases? Mills is largely avoiding the media (he said he has got too much flak), which actually could be a good thing. I imagine however that when commerical prototypes are ready it will hit the media fan alright.
As far as I can tell, the entirety of Mills' press since 1999 was that Village Voice article. Complaints of getting "too much flak" are just whining, and uncharacteristic of a scientist with a good idea, or even a businessman with a good idea.
And it appears that having a board of directors isn't limited to publicly-traded companies, 'cause the only SEC filings I could find for Blacklight Power had to do with the company itself trading securities. I can find no annual reports or anything else which a company that is making progress on its core mission would publish with zeal. None of this makes sense.
quote:
I can only suspect that there is lots of *engineering* work going into building prototypes right now. That kind of stuff wouldn't be published of course.
Yes, it would. He's got a patent, there's no reason to keep it secret. In fact, I'm surprised he's got only the single patent directly related to the hydrino work (the four listed on his site seem only distantly related). Given his claims, he should be filing two or more patents every year as the methods are refined and improved. It just doesn't make sense.
quote:
Regarding research into power generation, here is part of an abstract from June of this year:
No, that's yet another paper in which there's "excess heat" found, from which the detection of hydrinos is inferred. That's it. Power generation would depend on the excess heat being harnessed to do work. Energy and power are not the same thing (another point Mills' critics have made).quote:
I suppose you have in mind a type of absolute 'suppression', in which case of course such is impossible as you say.
Indeed, it's the definition of "suppression" Dr. Mallove would have used. That is precisely what he meant by "cover up." It's absurd, yet the late doctor was apparently fond of it:Mr Mallove has been promising fusion 'real soon now' for 15 years with no shipping product to show. There may be something at work, however most people are getting rather bored. His arguments are contradictory. On the one hand he says it is suppressed, on the other hand he is always claiming long lists of 'replications.' So which is it? Suppressed or validated? The answer seems to depend on what point he wants to make, on that particular day. In the end, Mr Mallove seems to be on some kind of personal pseudo religious quest, which is fine, so long as everyone else keeps this in mind, and takes everything he says and does with a large pinch of salt.
- The Later Day Quaker Preacher Eugene Mallove Also note that this "wonderful human being" seems to have reneged on the Merriman-Mallove Pact.quote:
We have a relatively free media after all. But it does irk me when someone like Parks deliberately speaks falsehoods to mislead his readers into thinking there is |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 20:31:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know, this has been bugging me too. Why choose a thread title like "Too good to be true?" and then act offended when people arrive at the obvious answer of "yes."
Guys, guys, .....
markie has stated on these forums that he believes anything that hasn't been directly disproven, by mutually exclusive evidence to the contrary, should be considered true until such evidence is forthcoming.
Its what enables his particularly woo-woo worldview... I'm sure you all recall the whole thing about "supermaterial beings" and whatnot.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 20:46:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
markie has stated on these forums that he believes anything that hasn't been directly disproven, by mutually exclusive evidence to the contrary, should be considered true until such evidence is forthcoming.
Its what enables his particularly woo-woo worldview...
Yes, but he should know by now that we don't share his ridiculous standards. Why does he continue to act surprised/offended whenever we call him on one of his woo-woo claims?
Maybe we should think of a term for someone like markie who considers every claim true unless it is demonstrably false. An "askeptic?" Or is "sucker" already good enough?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/06/2005 20:47:18 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 20:49:32 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure he's quite that pathological, Dude. He did a quick turn-around on the World Trade Center towers thing, despite the fact that the evidence presented was not mutually exclusive with his ideas.
But the sad part is that markie seems to think that skeptics should consider true each and every slight variation on ancient confidence games and self-delusions. Yet one of the guidelines skeptics (and psoriasis victims) learn early on is "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." You see, markie, it isn't that Mills' work is unorthodox, it's that he's acting in a completely orthodox manner for a crackpot.
Of course if solid verification of Mills' stuff turns up in the future, we'll all likely change our minds quite rapidly. You, markie, seem to be under the impression that once a skeptic's mind is made up, that's the end of the story, but that's simply bull. "All conclusions are tentative" is another basic skeptical guideline. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 21:04:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by KilSo, Markie, now I am wondering why you posted this? And why you chose the Pseudoscience folder? Were you looking for conformation of our curmudgeonly ways? Is there a part of you that really is doubtful of Mills claims? If your intention was to ignore the warning signs pointed out to you, and become an apologist for Mills and his “renaissance man” ways, what do you expect from us? That we now stop being skeptics, stop using critical thinking, stop calling it as we see it, based on all the charlatans that have used the same style as Mills, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt? Are you at war with skeptics? With skepticism? With critical thinking? What exactly is the point of this little exercise?
Funny, the same things have been passing through my mind as well. Here's the scoop: In 1999 I stumbled upon the site, briefly skimming over it. (I know it was 1999 because I had emailed some friends about it and just checked the date.) Then some important things came up and I forgot about it, until a few days ago when I was reading up on cold fusion. BlackLight Power was mentioned, it jogged my memory and I started checking out the site again. I posted here about it just after maybe a hour of browsing the site. At the time I was was split maybe 60-40 *against* it being the real deal. But I have to say that as I've looked more closely at the information there (and some elsewhere) over the last few days, I have changed my view and am at about 10-90 opinion that it is the real deal.
So that's why this thread seems odd now, even to me. I've gone from primarily an agnostic-doubter to essentially a believer in three days flat, or so. I feel abit of the zeal of the new convert.
According to the website there are now about 25 scientists working at BLP, nine of them PhDs. And then some external consultants to boot. Are they all pulling a fast one on us? Skeptics here tend to disbelieve conspiracy theories because of the supposed 'cover-up' problem. But at the same time it is hard to believe that science in the last 100 years could have overlooked something so fundamental. So what's a skeptic to choose?
I opt for no conspiracy and a revised physics, at least for now.
Mark
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 21:16:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Are they all pulling a fast one on us? Skeptics here tend to disbelieve conspiracy theories because of the supposed 'cover-up' problem. But at the same time it is hard to believe that science in the last 100 years could have overlooked something so fundamental. So what's a skeptic to choose?
I opt for no conspiracy and a revised physics, at least for now.
False dichotomy. Another possibility is actually the most likely: that the only conman is Mills, and he keeps the scientists blind to the mistakes they're making by blowing smoke up their asses about how fantastic all those forthcoming Nobel Prizes are going to be, and also by actively ignoring criticism.
Scientists are human, after all. They're not immune to flattery and self-deceit in the face of something they want to be true.
Or, it could very well be that the only conman is Mills, and his claims of having 25 scientists on staff are simply lies. It certainly wouldn't take much of a cover-up to conceal that. There wouldn't be any real people involved. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 06:47:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
My purpose for the quote is not important...
Then why use it?
and so what if I was trying to offend North Americans. They offend me every day.
Sorry to hear that.
Edit: and you didnt define your problem with it...
I find it offensive. I don't like being generalized like that. Some of us North Americans don't go along with all of our leaderships actions or ascribe to all of their policies.
To me it looks like a keen observation. Truth can be a bitch sometimes.
And what truth would that be? |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 07:20:14 [Permalink]
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| A little addendum: being a PhD doesn't make one immediately a good, or even a scientist at all. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 07:50:55 [Permalink]
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OK last post on my sig! Try to stay on topic...
Just think of it as an homage to the late G. G. Allen the most offensive person to ever live. (See the documentary, G.G. Allen: Hated) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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