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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2005 : 12:30:34 [Permalink]
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Dear, dear Trish
This is degenerating into a chat site.Yes, I did notice that your ms was syntactically challenged ("not of some standards"). There are cures for that condition. Libraries abound with books on correct grammar.
Your restatement of my point is strange. I did not use the term "UnAmerican" nor does my posting imply it.The term "McCarthyism" is freely tossed about by the political left as a substitute for what you call "rational discussion". The myth of McCarthy is at some variance from history.I've cited a couple of good scources if you want to learn the history. vrwc |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 13:45:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
vrwc:
The myth of McCarthy is at some variance from history.I've cited a couple of good scources if you want to learn the history.
Rather then send us off to read all the books you have recommended, why don't you just explain the myth of Joe McCarthy. Reference those books if you wish. Since you seem think that the history that we have learned is possibly at variance with the truth, I think you should be able to put that problem into your own words and make an attempt at setting us straight on that.
Frankly, I would need something more than someone making a claim to get me to run off and do research on that claim. My time is limited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 15:03:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I am old enough to remember McCarthy. He was an alcoholic blight on the public discourse and finally ended up in the disgrace he richly deserved.
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I had no idea you were that old, filthy. I guess from your name I had a 20-30ish guy in mind. I'm old and McCarthy was before my time. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 15:05:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
I see the topic of Jos. McCarthy is being revived. Main reason is the realization, on the left, that post boomer generations have no idea who they're talking about when they accuse conservatives of "McCarthyism". Since name-calling is a staple of leftist agrument they feel the need to revive the myth. I notice that Hollywood has obligingly concocted a movie to promote this.For a concise analysis of the McCarythy myth I recommend the coverage in Ann Coulter's TREASON.I'm now looking around for a used copy of Buckley and Bozell's book, I believe the title is MCCARTHY AND HIS ENEMIES.vrwc
Ann Coulter is hardly someone who is known for getting the facts right. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 15:54:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
For a concise analysis of the McCarythy myth I recommend the coverage in Ann Coulter's TREASON.
The little I know about Ann Coulter leaves me to think that she's morally corrupt. I would not trust a single word she has written. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 16:30:37 [Permalink]
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| Having been born in 1961, Ann Coulter is too young to remember McCarthy. And since "name-calling is a staple of" many of Coulter's agruments, anyone who points to Coulter as an authority while decrying name-calling in political discourse is really missing his/her own point. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 16:36:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
Yes, I did notice that your ms was syntactically challenged ("not of some standards"). There are cures for that condition. Libraries abound with books on correct grammar.
And you need a book on how to correctly use punctuation. If you really feel the need to go down that road, your own posts should be A+ English-class material. They're not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 16:45:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I am old enough to remember McCarthy. He was an alcoholic blight on the public discourse and finally ended up in the disgrace he richly deserved.
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I had no idea you were that old, filthy. I guess from your name I had a 20-30ish guy in mind. I'm old and McCarthy was before my time.
I feel flattered....
I have managed to survive for some 66 years.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2005 : 21:14:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
...put that problem into your own words...
A few points here.
RE spelling/grammar etc. all here are obviously adequately literate... ("OFF")... it aint' none worse than my own stuff, anyways (ofay, bakk "ON" now... turned spelling/grammar-checking "OFF" just then) and I think we've detracted from an interesting topic. vrwc may have made this comment in jest, one can't tell in a posting.
I'm curious as to the meaning of vrwc's statements on "McCarthyism." I've known at least one highly-intelligent, very decent person who was an adult in that era who told me (circa 1990) that McCarthy had been right. It's easy to forget the circumstances of the day- Stalin, a paranoid and sociopathic figure regarded as the biggest mass-murderer of all time by many, enforced a state of domestic terror in the USSR and her satellites with a brutal fist. We had good reason to fear the Soviets in those times... Gorbachov he wasn't.
But I get the impression the notoriety of McCarthy is being referred to here, as opposed to a direct parallel to the circumstances... i.e. "The X Party states that the Y Party is lying to the American people to induce a state of paranoia to forward their cause." Assign X and Y at will; the claim seems to apply both ways. What I want to know is... why is this this the case as vrwc sees things? Both parties have probably "cornered the market" on lies and deception at various points in history... in what major ways have the Democrats gained a monopoly now? And, if the history of the McCarthy affair has been distorted (literally) please briefly explain how, vrwc. As I noted, you wouldn't be the first person of integrity who's told me such, and I'm open to the possibility "revisionist history" is in play, here, if the facts suggest it.
Again, I'm not especially knowledgeable in these areas, and maybe I can learn something from vrwc's perspective. In fact, I already have... I wouldn't have thought the term "McCarthyism" would be applied in such a way, but again, politics isn't one of my fortes. |
Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 11/06/2005 21:21:57 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 01:01:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your restatement of my point is strange. I did not use the term "UnAmerican" nor does my posting imply it.The term "McCarthyism" is freely tossed about by the political left as a substitute for what you call "rational discussion". The myth of McCarthy is at some variance from history.I've cited a couple of good scources if you want to learn the history. vrwc
Granted. I chose to use the term 'UnAmerican' in my attempt to understand your position. If I've misunderstood your position, my apologies. But as I am neither 'left' nor 'right', I used the term in an attempt to clarify my understanding of your position. As I recall, McCarthy ran the Committee on UnAmerican Activities. Which is the reason I chose that particular terminology. If my understanding of the McCarthy era is flawed, I'd prefer to hear your point of view. I have a test for which I am studying on Dec 3rd. My apologies, the test is more important to my future than reading a book you've recommended on this subject. As for Ann Coulter, I can have no respect for a woman who claims that I don't exist, an atheist in a foxhole. Find me a credible source. Give me your synopsis of the source and cite your source. My sources for McCarthy consist of my maternal grandparents and my father, in addition to what I learned in school as history. Political discussions with my grandmother were always interesting and enlightening. A parallel can be drawn between the concept of the Committee on UnAmerican Activities and those whose views are opposed to the Republican Party and President Bush. The Republican Party is something I can no longer understand. They are too deeply held in the grip of the Religious Right. This can be nothing but detrimental to the party and to our government.
I asked for rational discussion of the issue, not patronization. Can you discuss with me, your position with regard to your objections to comparison between McCarthyism and the current administration? If so, we have something to discuss. If not, I fail to see that your opinion is worth my time. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
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"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
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Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 03:51:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Communism might be on the wane, but McCarthyism is alive and well in the form of the stalking pervert, Bill O'Reilly.
Fred Barnes of Fox (Faux) News is another student of McCarthyism, though watered down. Instead of advancing his career by hunting commies, Barnes simply uses McCarthy's blunt technique of out and out lies to attack those he dislikes or is threatened by. (Such a Joe Wilson or the Democrats in general.)
In the recent movie "Good Night and Good Luck", actors portrayed historic CBS News figures of the early 1950s except for McCarthy, for whom the film makers simply used actual footage. The reason: if someone accurately portrayed McCarthy, modern audiences wouldn't believe it as the real McCarthy was so insanely over-the-top. He was a very evil man who built his ambitions by destroying the lives of innocent people.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 13:27:39 [Permalink]
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Filthy
Sorry, I didn't intend to out your age as a response to my posting. Actually I'm the same vintage. We'd both be high school age at the time and, I submit, your impression may have been formed by the biased press reports of a media largely hostile to McCarthy. I don't propose to get into a rehash of this piece of history. My point is that there are two different prespectives of what transpired then, although the left wants to insist on only one, the McCarthy myth.
My contention, which I don't see challenged by the foregoing posts, is that the reason for this insistence is to create a polemical shortcut in which leftist participants can evade making a case by simply labeling their opponent as McCarthyite or engaging in McCarthyism.The opponent is automatically disqualified and his arguments can be sidestepped and ignored. It is a device to stymie honest debate.vrwc
Trish
Most unchivalrous of me to latch on to your allusion to unruly grammar. Sorry if it appeared patronizing , but you appeared to be frustrated by it by it; that you felt debate was not going in the direction you believe it should. I infer your desire is to debate, not the anti-communist battle of the 50's, but some activity of the Bush administration that you consider unfair or even unconstitutional. If so, framing it in terms of "McCarthyism" is not
going to address your concerns (which I'll be happy to discuss seperately).vrwc |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 14:07:24 [Permalink]
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vrwc
So your main concern is the dishonest tactics employed by the Democrats in attempting to bury legitimate Republican allegations which will cause their agenda damage, as I speculated. I'm interested in this. Please elaborate. |
Ron White |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 17:54:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
vrwc:
My contention, which I don't see challenged by the foregoing posts, is that the reason for this insistence is to create a polemical shortcut in which leftist participants can evade making a case by simply labeling their opponent as McCarthyite or engaging in McCarthyism.The opponent is automatically disqualified and his arguments can be sidestepped and ignored. It is a device to stymie honest debate.
quote:
vrwc:
Since name-calling is a staple of leftist agrument they feel the need to revive the myth.
It's sort of like Republicans dismissing any idea from the left by calling whoever came up with the idea a liberal. When the right uses the word liberal it is usually as an ad hominem.
Please vrwc, don't make out like it's only people on the left who play that game…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 20:14:29 [Permalink]
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RonnyWhite
You'll notice I didn't even allege dishonesty. My impression is that the political left, once self-described as the intellectual pinnacle, has now descended to substituting strawman allegations and simple name calling in place of discussing issues. Look back over the postings and note how many center on simple invective against Bush, against an author I cited and even an accusation that I'm a simple purveyor of "prepackaged" talking points. In each case I have invited the participants to bring up specific issues and debate them in open forum. You appear to be an interested observer who wants to watch political debate and draw your conclusions. Let's see how many will get down to issues. vrwc |
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