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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:45:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
If philosophy is completely unrelated to the brain and evolution then why can't ants philosophy?
How do you know they can't?
Philosophy is a noun.
Philosophize is the verb.
Because in their billions of years in existence they have never done anything creative. Creative = Philosophy. Thanks for fixing my typo. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:46:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
A neuron fires in the brain to create a thought, be it scientific or philosophical thought, thus evolution must have created philosophy.
Yes and no. Evolution did indeed create the mind that contemplates philosophy. Social evolution which is external to physical evolution can be looked at to dissect external influences on the outcome of the organism.
External things act on the product of your genetic makeup both before an egg is fertilized and continuing until the organism dies. So how does that have anything to do with physical evolution except as it involves selection of mates? |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:50:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
If philosophy is completely unrelated to the brain and evolution then why can't ants philosophy?
How do you know they can't?
Philosophy is a noun.
Philosophize is the verb.
Because in their billions of years in existence they have never done anything creative. Creative = Philosophy. Thanks for fixing my typo.
Your definition of philosophy is wholly inadequate. And, who's to judge what is creative anyway? All you can really say is we don't see the same technological development in ant colonies. They don't have electrical lights. But they farm, ranch, build bridges, float on leaf rafts, act in a coordinated way and so on. How do you know what thought processes might be going on there that we just haven't detected yet? |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/12/2005 11:51:18 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 11:56:26 [Permalink]
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ASR I am at a bit of a loss. It seems that you are saying that since ants have brains and people have brains they should think alike? I'm sure that is not what you mean, but what are you trying to say??
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:02:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
If computers reach a conclusion that it cannot understand it crashes.
[quote] A computer cannot understand anything. A computer is a machine. Computers crash for many reasons, NEVER because they don't understand something.
This has nothing to do with evolution. Stop Jumping around and simpley state what your problem with evolution is.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6914
What we have evolved to includes philosophy. To say that philosophy is not a part of our existence is absurd. A part of our brain is dedicated to philosophy. What I am saying is that if evolution gave us philosophy, which it must have since our genetic code contructs the philosophical brain, it is a strange coincidence that the result was the development of emotions. Scientists say that who we are as a person is a 50/50 mix of genetics and environment...science and philosophy. Evolution did all of this? The argument is that science functions through absolutes...philosophy is the opposite of that, how did science concieve something that by nature is impossible for it to understand? |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:08:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
A neuron fires in the brain to create a thought, be it scientific or philosophical thought, thus evolution must have created philosophy.
Yes and no. Evolution did indeed create the mind that contemplates philosophy. Social evolution which is external to physical evolution can be looked at to dissect external influences on the outcome of the organism.
External things act on the product of your genetic makeup both before an egg is fertilized and continuing until the organism dies. So how does that have anything to do with physical evolution except as it involves selection of mates?
BINGO it doesn't. Thanks for making the point. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:09:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
Those things are completely unrelated. And your conclusion is flawed.
A neuron fires to create an impulse. That impulse may be a thought. It may be a state message on arm position. It may be a pain message. That evolution made the equipment does not follow that philosophy is a hardwired trait. Especially since philosophy is learned, not inherent.
This is a categorical error of division.
Your premise is logically flawed.
If philosophy is completely unrelated to the brain and evolution then why can't ants philosophy?
[/quote]
How do you know they don't? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:10:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Scientists say that who we are as a person is a 50/50 mix of genetics and environment...science and philosophy. Evolution did all of this? The argument is that science functions through absolutes...philosophy is the opposite of that, how did science concieve something that by nature is impossible for it to understand?
Genetics is science and environment is philosophy? What the hell does that mean?
Science doesn't understand things. Science is not an entity. Science is a methodology for understanding the physical universe.
You have a very strange way of looking at things or at least a strange way of phrasing things...
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:14:13 [Permalink]
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ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:15:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
If philosophy is completely unrelated to the brain and evolution then why can't ants philosophy?
How do you know they can't?
Philosophy is a noun.
Philosophize is the verb.
Because in their billions of years in existence they have never done anything creative. Creative = Philosophy. Thanks for fixing my typo.
Gross oversimplification.
Philosophy does not equate to creativity.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:18:23 [Permalink]
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ASR this topic you started is called "My argument against evolution".
Then you state the following:
quote:
What we have evolved to includes philosophy. To say that philosophy is not a part of our existence is absurd.
I'm really trying to follow you but you are making so many twists and turns that you are actually arguing with yourself!
edited for spelling |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 10/12/2005 12:19:38 |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:18:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:24:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God.
And since we lack any mechanism by which to communicate these very complex concepts in a two way manner with these beings, how do you know the animals don't possess these things?
"The humans said they were more advanced than dolphins because they had the atomic bomb and New York. The dolphins claimed they were more advanced than humans and listed the same items." -- Paraphrased Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:26:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
ASR this topic you start is called "My argument against evolution".
Then you state the following:
quote:
What we have evolved to includes philosophy. To say that philosophy is not a part of our existence is absurd.
I'm really trying to follow you but you are making so many twists and turns that you are actually arguing with yourself!
Someone argued that humans created philosophy, not evolution. Stating that evolution must have created it is a logical conundrum, given that it is not necessary for survival of the fittest. It has created murder, greed, despair,...all things that disrupt the natural equilibrium of evolution. Emotions put a kink in the works. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:31:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God.
And since we lack any mechanism by which to communicate these very complex concepts in a two way manner with these beings, how do you know the animals don't possess these things?
"The humans said they were more advanced than dolphins because they had the atomic bomb and New York. The dolphins claimed they were more advanced than humans and listed the same items." -- Paraphrased Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
You all argue with me that I have no evidence to support my claims, yet turn around and make philosophical arguments in the same manner to refute. Make up your mind. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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