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 Can't say "Boys and Girls" anymore?
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  14:27:56  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Even I think that this is going too far, assuming of course that the source isn't bs-ing any of this up.

Then again, here's their source.

(Yes, I first saw this on Rapture Ready.



>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Edited by - the_ignored on 11/22/2005 14:30:34

Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend

173 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  14:52:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Subjectmatter a Private Message
They do have a point though. Imagine if a teacher were to say 'Good morning, whites and blacks'. We'd never hear the end of it.

Tee hee

Just because something is traditional, doesn't mean it should be encouraged. I don't know if passing laws to prevent that formulation is the right way to go about it, but I do agree that changing the way that children are taught is the only viable method at present of achieving true equality between the genders.

(Yes. I am a feminist)

Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2558 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  15:04:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message
Me, I'm considered strange becase I think that instead of teaching religion, sex, or pc-correct ways to think in schools, I think that they should be taught some sodding science, math, history, and critical thinking skills (learning about logical fallacies and how to spot them), etc.

I'm not going for this stuff at all. Both the left and the right-wingnuts it seems, want to control schools so's they can plant their own agendas in the kids.

Whatever happened to learning?

>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  15:16:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
Is it really wrong to acknowledge that there are differences? Whether it be black or white, boy or girl? Yes, that statement, "Good morning blacks and whites." did strike me as odd, but after thinking about it, I really see nothing wrong with it. Of course, you would have to include hispanics and such depending on the class.

We shouldn't be trying to hide the differences in gender or race. Rather, we should be trying to show that even though there are differences, they don't matter.

quote:
As a first step, classroom teachers should avoid making statements such as, 'The girls are doing a good job,' or 'The boys need to be a bit quieter,'


In a high school biology class of mine, there were 8 students, 4 girls, 4 guys. The girl with the lowest average for the entire class was higher than the guy with the highest average.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 11/22/2005 15:17:08
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Hawks
SFN Regular

Canada
1383 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  16:55:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Hawks's Homepage Send Hawks a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Is it really wrong to acknowledge that there are differences? Whether it be black or white, boy or girl?

You are either a boy OR a girl (with very few exceptions). You can be black or white - or on a sliding scale somewhere between the two. The black/white classification is not necessarily meaningful - the boy/girl one is.

METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden!
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  17:18:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Not to mention, there may be Asian-African-Hispano-American kids, too.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Robb
SFN Regular

USA
1223 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  19:50:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Robb a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

Is it really wrong to acknowledge that there are differences? Whether it be black or white, boy or girl? Yes, that statement, "Good morning blacks and whites." did strike me as odd, but after thinking about it, I really see nothing wrong with it. Of course, you would have to include hispanics and such depending on the class.

We shouldn't be trying to hide the differences in gender or race. Rather, we should be trying to show that even though there are differences, they don't matter.


I agree with you that we should not hide the differences in gender but I do not agree that the differences do not matter. Boys and girls are different, they mature differently, learn differently, play differently, have different body parts and have different problems growing up. These differences should be addressed so we raise healthy kids and not confused kids.

A problem in some of our schools is that women control most of the descisions and policies of a district and are skewed to a girls point of view. Most of the administrators and teachers in my local school district are women. I am not saying there is an agenda or anything its just a byproduct of the situation and I think boys are being left behind. Around 55%-60% of full time and 65%-70% of part time college students are women in the US and these numbers grow every year (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/july-dec02/college.html).

My observation is that boys have a harder time staying still all day in school and need some time to do physical activity. They are labled as ADD or problem children more often than girls and this contributes to a resentment to school and dwindling numbers in colleges.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular

501 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  22:43:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ronnywhite a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
... I agree with you that we should not hide the differences in gender but I do not agree that the differences do not matter...


I agree. I guess we naturally "polarize" things, including people, so that we can categorize them or the problems associated with their lives, and their specific needs. It's a matter of keeping grouping for individual and overall benefit and positive change distinct from ill-founded stereotypings and overgeneralizations (such as racial and other prejudice.) Sometimes, it seems that trying to "combat" these things through enforcing "denial" can be self-defeating. It seems to me that many such "efforts" are only necessary due to the proportion of a population who are either willingly or by nature "non-thinkers" or "just plain don't give a damn" as opposed to those who think and/or care. A hard balancing act.

Ron White
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  23:13:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
I agree with you that we should not hide the differences in gender but I do not agree that the differences do not matter. Boys and girls are different, they mature differently, learn differently, play differently, have different body parts and have different problems growing up. These differences should be addressed so we raise healthy kids and not confused kids.


When I said that, I was talking about it from an academic standpoint. But yes, in general, gender does matter.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  23:23:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
I was listening to the radio program "Love Line" tonight and Dr. Drew, the host, was commenting on what a powerful thing testosterone really is. He says one can only liken it to being under the influence of a drug. He finds efforts to treat teenage boys and girls the same to be insane. There are profound biological differences between the sexes. His comment was that if as a society we refuse to recognize these large, glaring differences, how can we ever expect people to recognize subtle differences, like cultural ones for instance?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/22/2005 23:24:02
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend

173 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  00:06:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Subjectmatter a Private Message
While true that there is a difference between male and female children when taken on average, this difference is still smaller than the differences that can exist between two individuals of the same gender (In terms of behaviour and performance). Of course you can't treat everyone the same, but except in instances where differences in treating two people is directly warranted by their physical characteristics - it would be unreasonable to treat people with no legs equally in athletics as people with two normal legs - then every person should be treated on an individual basis.

The more it is suggested to children that boys and girls form separate groups, the more they will form separate groups, and anyone who has worked with young children will know that they need to prompting to form groups where some children are left out. It appears obvious that this will contribute to sexual discrimination later in life.

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  00:21:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
It appears obvious that this will contribute to sexual discrimination later in life.
Whoa, what? Now that is a jump I'm not willing to make.

It seems as if some feminists want it both ways. They want women to bond and find their strength as a group and they want female achievements to be singled out as special, yet they want to pretend any delineation of the genders is inherently bad. You know, boys can have self-esteem issues too. I find this idea that allowing boys to bond as group themselves will automatically lead to female woes later in life to be ridiculous, quite frankly.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/23/2005 00:26:15
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular

501 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  00:34:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ronnywhite a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter

...It appears obvious that this will contribute to sexual discrimination later in life.



You may be correct, but I'm unsure, and I definately wouldn't say it's obvious. Any more than does separation of sexes during grade and highschools for the purposes of sports and social activites. I think a certain degree of separation may naturally occur, and sexism, as racism etc. into adulthood might involve more emotional dysfunctions/inadequacies etc. than result from youthful conditioning. If youth environment was that strongly deterministic, many people (such as myself) would be not only highly sexist, but extremely bigoted as well. I'm not, nor was I as a young adult. Nor are/were many others with similarly less-than-ideal upbringings, whereas some who have had tailor-made childhoods probably have turned out to be extreme jerks. It might be more complex than that, but surely no good can come of nurturing kids to be discriminative in absurd and unfair ways.

Ron White
Edited by - ronnywhite on 11/23/2005 00:42:16
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  03:16:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Big deal, one nutty professor. It seems typical of academia circles. Someone draws a conclusion, writes a paper, an ivory tower paper in particular. It sounds a bit of a stretch to say acknowledging the kids are different genders is harmful. The kids know they are different. Have any kids? The most liberal mom friends of mine still have girls that are into pink and Barbie. My son is a game addict. I'm very anti-gun and anti-violence but do you think that matters? Heck no. The popular games are Call of Duty and Vice City or something like that and they are boys' games with a few exceptions.

Race is another issue. That matters. But not acknowledging the kids are different genders.
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend

173 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  04:13:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Subjectmatter a Private Message
I disagree vehemently with the practise of separating boys and girls for the purposes of sport as well. I have seen plenty of girls that are better at sports than the average boy, and I have seen plenty of boys that simply can't perform in some sports at all. When I was 14 and we played rugby in school I would sometimes watch the boys practise. It was painfully obvious that a fair number of them would much rather be somewhere else. Why should a sporting girl not play sports with the boys? This in iteslf is a form of discrimination, let alone what it causes later in life.

And how do you move Beskeptigal, from acknowledging that the kids are different genders to segregating the genders?

And why should social groups be formed according to gender? What does it mean to develop ones 'Identity as a Woman'? A given woman has nothing in common with Margaret Thatcher apart from beeding once a month, so why should they be particularly proud of her becoming the Prime Minister of Britain? And what would a group of men discuss with each other which they couldn't equally well discuss in a mixed group of genders? The appendage between their legs? "Yup, my penis is a little sore today. How is yours?" "Oh, its fine. Except I have developed an odd bulge which worries me..." "You should have that seen to" "Yup".

And being a jerk is not a neccessary consequence of being a sexist. The worst sexists are the 'gentlemen' and some of the scum that call themselves 'feminists', like the new 'Feministiskt Initiativ' political party which has formed here in Sweden recently. People who hold doors open for women or argue that men should pay more tax because most crimes are committed by men should be shot! Hold doors open for people as a mark of respect for the individual, but holding the door open a woman is offensive.

The fact is that crimes are invariably committed by criminals, they are the ones who should pay for the judicial system. Or they would be, if they could. As it happens we have a duty to take care of them, so instead everyone else pays for the judicial system.

People who like sports should play sports, people who take an interst in politics should be politicians and scientists should do science. Children should be taught. And the fact that ADD is more common in boys is not reason to treat all boys as if they have ADD. For they don't. And doing so would be neglecting all the girls with ADD.

Nothing riles me up more than being classed according to my gender rather than being treated as an individual. My gender is only one of a myriad of characteristics which together form my identity.


[EDIT]: Sorry, I realise I come across as being a little bit militant... this is an issue which I have some rather strong feelings about. I apologize if my ramblings don't make a great deal of sense.

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Edited by - Subjectmatter on 11/23/2005 04:21:56
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend

313 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  05:26:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send woolytoad a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter

I disagree vehemently with the practise of separating boys and girls for the purposes of sport as well. I have seen plenty of girls that are better at sports than the average boy, and I have seen plenty of boys that simply can't perform in some sports at all. When I was 14 and we played rugby in school I would sometimes watch the boys practise. It was painfully obvious that a fair number of them would much rather be somewhere else.


So because girls who are exceptional at sport are better than the average guy (who'd have thought!) we should mix them? Being a guy can have some significant advantages, so the top end is divided by sex, we structure junior sport for this that's all.

quote:
And what would a group of men discuss with each other which they couldn't equally well discuss in a mixed group of genders?


The issue here is not that women could not equally discus a topic. Rather, women would not want to discuss certain things or it's not something you could safely discuss with women.
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