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melon1
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2005 :  09:50:54  Show Profile Send melon1 a Private Message
A UFO conspiracy theorist told me the other day that there is documented evidence that Jimmy Carter ordered the head of the CIA (Bush sr.) to hand over all information regarding UFO's during his term, and that Bush refused to obey the order.

I post this merely as a preface to my question. I'm actually not interested in debating the validity of this supposed event itself. Even if the answer to the question is yes, it doesn't mean that this asserted event actually happened. I want to see if any politically savvy people are aware of any situations in which it might be legal for a government agency to disobey an executive order. Does this occur? Exactly how much power does the President of the United States have? Can he invoke executive power to get his hands on information inside a government agency? If the president orders a government agency to hand over information in its keeping, can it legally refuse?

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2005 :  12:42:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
If you include Congress and the Pres arguing over what each can order the other to do, there have been many times the Pres ignored Congressional orders. I assume I can find cases of the opposite.

As to the Pres overstepping his authority, "Courts Says Bush Overstepping Authority with Detainees" has been in the news recently. Of course this has taken 3 years to even get this far and people are still being held with no trials. But here the military wants the orders so they aren't likely to refuse them.

I don't think a CIA director appointed by a President would have refused the above order. I recall one Pres requesting release of the UFO files but I can't remember if it was Carter or Clinton. And if I recall nothing spectacular was then released. But that doesn't mean the order was refused. A more plausible explanation would be the actual order had some caveat about excepting sensitive information.
Edited by - beskeptigal on 12/04/2005 12:44:53
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2005 :  07:23:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by melon1

A UFO conspiracy theorist told me the other day that there is documented evidence that Jimmy Carter ordered the head of the CIA (Bush sr.) to hand over all information regarding UFO's during his term, and that Bush refused to obey the order.

I post this merely as a preface to my question. I'm actually not interested in debating the validity of this supposed event itself. Even if the answer to the question is yes, it doesn't mean that this asserted event actually happened. I want to see if any politically savvy people are aware of any situations in which it might be legal for a government agency to disobey an executive order. Does this occur? Exactly how much power does the President of the United States have? Can he invoke executive power to get his hands on information inside a government agency? If the president orders a government agency to hand over information in its keeping, can it legally refuse?



As President, he can order whatever information he wants from an agency as long as it's not for public consumption. The agency may not refuse.

I believe Clinton asked for the release of Project Blue Book data to the public. Carter, IIRC, ordered Project Blue Book closed because they found nothing.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2005 :  01:07:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
I want to see if any politically savvy people are aware of any situations in which it might be legal for a government agency to disobey an executive order. Does this occur? Exactly how much power does the President of the United States have?


The president cannot, legally, order anyone to do anything illegal.

The president cannot order you or I to do anything (unless you are a gov employee/military, and he still can't order you to break laws). If he writes an executive order telling me to cook him dinner, I can tell him to go fuck himself.

As far as gov agencies, he is the chief exec. It seems like government agencies would have to follow any legal orders that pertained to their function/job. As the president gets to appoint the head of the CIA, it seems very unlikely to me that anyone in that position would be refusing orders pertaining to their job, and still be keeping said job.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2005 :  09:11:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

quote:
I want to see if any politically savvy people are aware of any situations in which it might be legal for a government agency to disobey an executive order. Does this occur? Exactly how much power does the President of the United States have?


The president cannot, legally, order anyone to do anything illegal.

The president cannot order you or I to do anything (unless you are a gov employee/military, and he still can't order you to break laws). If he writes an executive order telling me to cook him dinner, I can tell him to go fuck himself.

As far as gov agencies, he is the chief exec. It seems like government agencies would have to follow any legal orders that pertained to their function/job. As the president gets to appoint the head of the CIA, it seems very unlikely to me that anyone in that position would be refusing orders pertaining to their job, and still be keeping said job.



Yeah-- it seems like if the President can't look at something because it's too sensitive, then who the hell can?!? No, I'm sure that if Bush, Clinton, Carter, or anyone else asked to see some government file (provided it's not something protected for privacy concerns-- he can't look at my tax return without a legal order, I don't think), he'll probably be able to.
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melon1
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 12/06/2005 :  09:51:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send melon1 a Private Message
Thanks all. This is what I suspected. I told the guy, "I can't exactly disprove a rumor, but I feel that rumors require proof, not disproof." Since Bush refusing an executive order is an extraordinary claim, it requires extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously.
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