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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2005 :  21:58:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes of coarse the word "reason" is being used in two different ways.
I'm pleased to see that you agree. Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused, the statement, "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." would mean that EH&V must have cognition, intelligence or consciousness. Do you wish to defend the idea that EH&V are conscious?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2005 :  22:02:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message
quote:
Bill:
Yes of coarse the word "reason" is being used in two different ways. That was/is/remains my point. One more time, Tommy and Phil both said that NS/Random mutations program for a "reason". Subject A installed the air filter on his engine for a "reason". In order to come to his "reason" for installing the air filter he had to use "reason"/foreknowledge/predetermination/logic to reach his conclusion and the "reason" an air filter was required. When Tommy and Phil say that NS programs for a "reason" they are stating that NS has the ability to "reason" if they state that NS programs mutations for a "reason." See, that was not very complicated.


See? This is exactly why I am anti-semantic.

You're killing me, Bill...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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GeeMack
SFN Regular

USA
1093 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2005 :  22:40:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send GeeMack a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...

One more time, Tommy and Phil both said that NS/Random mutations program for a "reason".
One more time, nobody with any grasp of the process of evolution has ever claimed that mutations were a conscious act or came about for some predetermined reason. Your belief that the theory of evolution makes any such claim only provides more evidence that you're completely ignorant of the whole concept. Your claiming that other people said that only supports the idea that your reading comprehension skills are deplorable. Of course you've already demonstrated that to a fairly high level of certainty.

You continue to evade the simple question I've asked several times now. Maybe you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand the question, so allow me to phrase it in a way that even an idiot can comprehend. What would you suggest is the process that is responsible for bringing about the state of life on Earth as we know it today?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26004 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2005 :  23:50:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
One more time, why don't you address my response to your main point/question, and quit all this screwing around with unimportant side issues like TFs?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  03:55:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Wow! I get called out (the life of a wildlife rehabilitater can be interesting sometimes) and this thread takes off like a big-assed bird.

Ok, lets cut it to the quick: if there were no beneficial mutations, there would be no life on earth. Period.

Now is that a bold and brash statement, or what?

Dig it: the enviornment and the habital niches within it have never been constant in the long term, and have never adapted themselves to the needs of any species. The species must adapt to them. Therefore beneficial mutations are required to keep the species healthy. And sometimes those mutations take the species off in new, and indeed often strange directions, as is happening with the marine iguana even as we speak.

For another excellent example, look up the grasshopper mouse. And of course, the aforementioned nylon bug. And let us not forget the theropods; those marvels of the Devonian that were the very distant ancestors of all mammals.

Mutations are random. It's rather like poker -- you've got to play or fold the hand you're dealt. The draw or the flop might give you a winning hand or it might not. But either way, the deck really doesn't care nor does it even know who is holding which cards.

Kent Hovind is a fraud and a charlaton of the finest water, and another piece of evidence that evolution doesn't always get it right.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/24/2005 04:40:53
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  04:39:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Yes of coarse the word "reason" is being used in two different ways.
I'm pleased to see that you agree. Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused, the statement, "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." would mean that EH&V must have cognition, intelligence or consciousness. Do you wish to defend the idea that EH&V are conscious?



No I don't because they are not. They are random wheater patterns, rocks banging togather at random, and preasure built up. They, just like random mutations, destroy rather then create. EH&V are random and just like all random proceses they destroy rather then create. EH&V do not create vasts amounts of complex progaming for a reason. Evol. somehow believe that random mutations as well can reason, and program with forethought and predetermaned outcomes in mind. I mearly point out the logical infallacy of those statments. This is not as complex as you as trying to make.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  04:41:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott...

One more time, Tommy and Phil both said that NS/Random mutations program for a "reason".
One more time, nobody with any grasp of the process of evolution has ever claimed that mutations were a conscious act or came about for some predetermined reason. Your belief that the theory of evolution makes any such claim only provides more evidence that you're completely ignorant of the whole concept. Your claiming that other people said that only supports the idea that your reading comprehension skills are deplorable. Of course you've already demonstrated that to a fairly high level of certainty.

You continue to evade the simple question I've asked several times now. Maybe you don't have the intellectual capacity to understand the question, so allow me to phrase it in a way that even an idiot can comprehend. What would you suggest is the process that is responsible for bringing about the state of life on Earth as we know it today?





One more time, nobody with any grasp of the process of evolution has ever claimed that mutations were a conscious act or came about for some predetermined reason.

(bill) Ummm, the snake guy did and so did Tommy Huxley.

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  05:04:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Wow! I get called out (the life of a wildlife rehabilitater can be interesting sometimes) and this thread takes off like a big-assed bird.

Ok, lets cut it to the quick: if there were no beneficial mutations, there would be no life on earth. Period.



Now is that a bold and brash statement, or what?

Dig it: the enviornment and the habital niches within it have never been constant in the long term, and have never adapted themselves to the needs of any species. The species must adapt to them. Therefore beneficial mutations are required to keep the species healthy. And sometimes those mutations take the species off in new, and indeed often strange directions, as is happening with the marine iguana even as we speak.


For another excellent example, look up the grasshopper mouse. And of course, the aforementioned nylon bug. And let us not forget the theropods; those marvels of the Devonian that were the very distant ancestors of all mammals.

Mutations are random. It's rather like poker -- you've got to play or fold the hand you're dealt. The draw or the flop might give you a winning hand or it might not. But either way, the deck really doesn't care nor does it even know who is holding which cards.

Kent Hovind is a fraud and a charlaton of the finest water, and another piece of evidence that evolution doesn't always get it right.









Ok, lets cut it to the quick: if there were no beneficial mutations, there would be no life on earth. Period.

(bill) Wrong. If left to thier own RM would be the end of life on earth.



Now is that a bold and brash statement, or what?

(bill) A typical macro TOE fallacy.




Dig it: the enviornment and the habital niches within it have never been constant in the long term, and have never adapted themselves to the needs of any species. The species must adapt to them. Therefore beneficial mutations are required to keep the species healthy. And sometimes those mutations take the species off in new, and indeed often strange directions, as is happening with the marine iguana even as we speak.

(bill) It's a lizzard (slang). It always was a lizard, it's is still a lizard and it will always be a lizard.


For another excellent example, look up the grasshopper mouse. And of course, the aforementioned nylon bug. And let us not forget the theropods; those marvels of the Devonian that were the very distant ancestors of all mammals.

(bill) yawn.




Mutations are random. It's rather like poker -- you've got to play or fold the hand you're dealt.

(bill) Wrong! It is a human using reason and logic to deside it he shall throw them or hold them! Know when to walk away and know when to run. BTW never count your $ when your sittin at the table... NOT BLIND CHANCE. Poker is combo of skill/reason/tactic mixed with sheer luck of the draw, mutations are not. They are not at all alike. There is no logic using, reasoning agent involved in NS RM, there is in poker.


The draw or the flop might give you a winning hand or it might not.
(bill) The draw will not give you a hill of beans unless a intelagent agent put the hand togather to begin with.



But either way, the deck really doesn't care nor does it even know who is holding which cards.

(bill) The deck no. The other rational thinking beings across the table from you using reason and logic to try and defeat you, yes it matters to them very much so.

Kent Hovind is a fraud and a charlaton of the finest water, and another piece of evidence that evolution doesn't always get it right.


(bill) OK your KH or DD fetish is border line physo/serial.

regards Bill

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  05:11:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Do you wish to defend the idea that EH&V are conscious?
No I don't because they are not.
Again we agree. This is going well. Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused but not conscious this means that the statement "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." or equivalently "It requires reason to have a reason." which you made, is false. Since your argument depends on this statement being true it is unfounded and may be summarily dismissed.
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  05:29:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt

quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Do you wish to defend the idea that EH&V are conscious?
No I don't because they are not.
Again we agree. This is going well.
Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused but not conscious this means that the statement "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." or equivalently "It requires reason to have a reason." which you made, is false. Since your argument depends on this statement being true it is unfounded and may be summarily dismissed.




Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused but not conscious this means that the statement "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." or equivalently "It requires reason to have a reason." which you made, is false.

(bill) wrong! random weather paterns come togather to form a hurrican based on no logic or forethought. The result from this random act is more random acts as the canes direction of travel is effected by more random weather patterns. The result is the storm guided by blind chance sometimes will destroy or sometimes spinoff out into sea. What it does not do is plot its coarse and it's final outcome with reason and forethought. Much the same as NS RM it is random lacking any reason or forethought

regards bill


"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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dv82matt
SFN Regular

760 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  05:47:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dv82matt a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Since earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes (EH&V) are caused but not conscious this means that the statement "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." or equivalently "It requires reason to have a reason." which you made, is false.
(bill) wrong!
Then you must believe that the statement, "It requires cognition, intelligence or consciousness to have a cause." is true. Yet you refuse to defend it. I will accept this as an admission from you that you do not have a valid argument.

I suspect that the use of the word "reason" confuses you, so just to make it crystal clear, evolution is not conscious, but it is caused.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  06:01:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

Wow! I get called out (the life of a wildlife rehabilitater can be interesting sometimes) and this thread takes off like a big-assed bird.

Ok, lets cut it to the quick: if there were no beneficial mutations, there would be no life on earth. Period.



Now is that a bold and brash statement, or what?

Dig it: the enviornment and the habital niches within it have never been constant in the long term, and have never adapted themselves to the needs of any species. The species must adapt to them. Therefore beneficial mutations are required to keep the species healthy. And sometimes those mutations take the species off in new, and indeed often strange directions, as is happening with the marine iguana even as we speak.


For another excellent example, look up the grasshopper mouse. And of course, the aforementioned nylon bug. And let us not forget the theropods; those marvels of the Devonian that were the very distant ancestors of all mammals.

Mutations are random. It's rather like poker -- you've got to play or fold the hand you're dealt. The draw or the flop might give you a winning hand or it might not. But either way, the deck really doesn't care nor does it even know who is holding which cards.

Kent Hovind is a fraud and a charlaton of the finest water, and another piece of evidence that evolution doesn't always get it right.









Ok, lets cut it to the quick: if there were no beneficial mutations, there would be no life on earth. Period.

(bill) Wrong. If left to thier own RM would be the end of life on earth.



Now is that a bold and brash statement, or what?

(bill) A typical macro TOE fallacy.




Dig it: the enviornment and the habital niches within it have never been constant in the long term, and have never adapted themselves to the needs of any species. The species must adapt to them. Therefore beneficial mutations are required to keep the species healthy. And sometimes those mutations take the species off in new, and indeed often strange directions, as is happening with the marine iguana even as we speak.

(bill) It's a lizzard (slang). It always was a lizard, it's is still a lizard and it will always be a lizard.


For another excellent example, look up the grasshopper mouse. And of course, the aforementioned nylon bug. And let us not forget the theropods; those marvels of the Devonian that were the very distant ancestors of all mammals.

(bill) yawn.




Mutations are random. It's rather like poker -- you've got to play or fold the hand you're dealt.

(bill) Wrong! It is a human using reason and logic to deside it he shall throw them or hold them! Know when to walk away and know when to run. BTW never count your $ when your sittin at the table... NOT BLIND CHANCE. Poker is combo of skill/reason/tactic mixed with sheer luck of the draw, mutations are not. They are not at all alike. There is no logic using, reasoning agent involved in NS RM, there is in poker.


The draw or the flop might give you a winning hand or it might not.
(bill) The draw will not give you a hill of beans unless a intelagent agent put the hand togather to begin with.



But either way, the deck really doesn't care nor does it even know who is holding which cards.

(bill) The deck no. The other rational thinking beings across the table from you using reason and logic to try and defeat you, yes it matters to them very much so.

Kent Hovind is a fraud and a charlaton of the finest water, and another piece of evidence that evolution doesn't always get it right.


(bill) OK your KH or DD fetish is border line physo/serial.

regards Bill

You have done nothing but make statements with exactly no supporting evidence. This is because you have none and don't know where to look for it. I will not bother to demand reference because I know that such does not exist.

It is not only Hovind; there are a large number of other serial, religious liars that have attracted my vitriolic attentions. If you had opened the link I provided for the mendatious scumbag, which I am sure that you did not, you would understand the reasons.

So, another question, if I may: do you support Intelligent Design Conjecture, and if so, why?

Oh, and here's another: do you believe that the London Hammer is evidence for a young earth?

And yet again: Logical Fallicies. A study of these sites might assist you in making an coherent argument.

Never the less, the deck controls the game and species fit into their niches as best they can. Not a bad metaphor, that.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  08:02:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Just now stumbled across this.

Interesting article concerning scientific endevors in '05.



This raises the questions: exactly what research in support of their conjecture does the anti-evolution bloc perform, who do they have doing field studies, and where are their labs and scientific libraries? What scientific papers have they submitted to the journals for peer review? Aside from in-house publications, that is.

One might further comment that finding fault with evolution and not presenting reliable evidence of another at least hypotisis to replace it is no more than a jumped-up form of grade school taunting, and utterly fraudulant.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/24/2005 08:04:11
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  08:39:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott:

The draw will not give you a hill of beans unless a intelagent agent put the hand togather to begin with.



And just who or what would this intelligent agent be?

By the way, did you read the reference I gave you? You might learn somenthing about evolution instead of blathering on about strawmen

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/24/2005 :  08:47:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
They are random wheater patterns, rocks banging togather at random, and preasure built up. They, just like random mutations, destroy rather then create.


The sheer ignorance of your statements is mindboggling.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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