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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:41:30
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http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/01/6perry.html
Texas Gov. Perry pandering to the fundie bozos yet again. This strikes me as a similiar stunt to his invite of a Protestant minister to do a public prayer at a middle school back in 2001, ignoring a U.S. Supreme Court ban on same. He followed with saying that getting prayer back in school was a high priority issue in his re-election campaign.
What a dipshit.
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:47:38 [Permalink]
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While I know both offically-led prayer and teaching creationism in public schools are "illegal" as ruled by the Supreme Court, what does that mean exactly? What the consequences for violating such a ruling? Are there any federal consequences or punishments, or does it just mean you are left vulnerable to civil suits?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/06/2006 16:49:04 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 19:28:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
While I know both offically-led prayer and teaching creationism in public schools are "illegal" as ruled by the Supreme Court, what does that mean exactly? What the consequences for violating such a ruling? Are there any federal consequences or punishments, or does it just mean you are left vulnerable to civil suits?
I've never actually heard of anyone pushing it to extremes. Over the years there's been a number of cease and desist orders judges have handed down on public prayer at school. For what I know, the offending parties would back down. I'd say though, there's plenty of small towns here in Texas that during public school events like high school football night, thumb their noses and do a pre-game public address prayer. Some communities are ignorant enough about separation of church/state to do that.
Hell, the fundy extremists probably would love to have their xtian prayers blasted non-stop over PA's at streetcorners, malls, schools, public buildings.
God help us. ;^)
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 20:20:08 [Permalink]
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| Just civil suits, like the Dover bit (wherein the plaintiffs, having won, expect to be repaid their court costs by the Dover Area School District, but nothing more than that and the Judge's order to cease the teaching of religion). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 20:34:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Just civil suits, like the Dover bit (wherein the plaintiffs, having won, expect to be repaid their court costs by the Dover Area School District, but nothing more than that and the Judge's order to cease the teaching of religion).
But what happens if the school refuses to follow the judge's order? Is that when the National Guard steps in and makes the school comply by force, as was necessary with the segregation issue? I guess what I'm asking is who actually enforces the Supreme Court's decision? The state or federal government? Could a state of federal legislature conceivably pass a law that instituted fines or jail time for things already decreed illegal, like say school-led prayer?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/06/2006 20:36:04 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 21:09:22 [Permalink]
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Defy a court order, and you will potentially be arrested.
I'm guessing that the judge who issued the order can also have a warrant issued for your arrest if you defy it?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 21:26:48 [Permalink]
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The judge would enforce his own order, by citing whatever school board member might refuse his order with contempt. (This is, of course, a strict hypothetical in the Dover case, as that school board got voted out.) Of course, how would a school board member actually force any particular school administrator or teacher to comply with a pro-ID policy? By firing him if he didn't? That would be grounds for a wrongful dismissal suit in many states, and punitive cash awards can be dished out with those.
Perhaps it's important to note that I am not a lawyer.
And sure, a legislature could pass laws decreeing that teacher-led prayers would be worth a $1,000 fine and 10 days in jail for each violation (for example). But the reason such protections are in the Constitution (and the Constitutions of every state and Commonwealth, if I'm not mistaken) is to de-politicize them, so it shouldn't have to be taken up by the legislature in the first place.
On the other hand, if you look at amendments like Prohibition, you'll see that they say, "...and the Congress is empowered to pass the necessary legislation to enforce this amendment" (or words to that effect). The amendments in the Bill of Rights say nothing like that, which is, perhaps, an oversight on the part of the Framers. Perhaps they thought that challenges to the First Amendment would be rare, since the rights it hands to the people are so basic that few legislators would think to try to trample on them, knowing that a court case would be just around the corner. I dunno.
Well, here's a question I don't know the answer to: what happens if I am illegally searched, and win my lawsuit? "Don't do it again to Dave W." would certainly be a superfluous (at best) ruling from the judge, as the likelihood of the government wanting to search me illegally again would be small (until there's another election, at least), given the bad PR it would generate. How many of those sorts of lawsuits are won each year, and what - generally speaking - is the result?
I picked that instead of, say, 2nd Amendment lawsuits since it seems like gun owners are just happy to be able to own their guns, and aren't looking for more than restrictive laws to be purged from the books. But I'm not even certain that a deep-pockets governmental body (especially, for example, one willing to spend billions on a war) would be detered from their actions by even billion-dollar fines for stepping all over Constitutional rights. That last thought, of course, assumes that the violations are more institutional policy than they are the result of individual actions - I'm sure that government employees would be detered by billion-dollar fines, but it's not often one gets to sue an individual government agent for "just doing his job" given legislation authorizing his actions. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 00:47:10 [Permalink]
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Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. " |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 01:12:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
But the reason such protections are in the Constitution (and the Constitutions of every state and Commonwealth, if I'm not mistaken) is to de-politicize them, so it shouldn't have to be taken up by the legislature in the first place.
Ok, but what about a proposed change to the constitution like the flag burning amendement? Say that passes and it becomes illegal to burn a flag in protest. What would that even mean, exactly? I doubt there would be any discussion of imposed fines in the amendment (otherwise they would have to keep passing new amendments as inflation reduced the perceived severity of the fine). So let's say it's against the constitution and I burn a flag anyway. Who arrests me and what exactly could I face as punishment? Would that sort of thing just be left up to the whim of each individual judge?
I just ask this because we routinely say unconstitutional actions are "against the law," but there doesn't seem to be any laws behind them, at least not in the traditional sense.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 01:13:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. "
Ooh, that verse is a good one. I say we chisel it in 10 foot letters over the top of every courthouse in the land so everyone knows this christian nation is nothing if not humble.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/07/2006 01:14:06 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 15:56:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
>snip:
I think that pretty much closes the door on that one, at least for Christians.
Actually, the fundies choose to ignore or are ignorant of those verses on private prayer like they are of the rest of that bybull delusional fairy tale crap. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2006 : 20:44:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Originally posted by Randy
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
>snip:
I think that pretty much closes the door on that one, at least for Christians.
Actually, the fundies choose to ignore or are ignorant of those verses on private prayer like they are of the rest of that bybull delusional fairy tale crap.
However, if a debate were to ever take place, the opponent could not just simply ignore it or be ignorant of it. It has to be explained away some how, although I don't see one.
Imagine they'd just go off spewing other scripture on how we all should be brazing the loard.
Public prayer?...it's your garden variety tribalism. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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