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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2006 : 14:00:14
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Finally, it looks like ID is starting to cave in, at least according to what I've found on the Panda's Thumb and the Thoughts from Kansas blogs.
The following is a quote from the TfK blog, quoting Uncommon Descent, with appropriate commentary about it:
quote:
I expect many similar moments as the creationists at Bill Dembski's blog try really hard to only talk science:
I will remind everyone again - please frame your arguments around science. If the ID movement doesn't get the issue framed around science it's going down and I do not like losing. The plain conclusion of scientific evidence supports descent with modification from a common ancestor. You are certainly welcome to have other opinions based on faith in something other than science but I'd ask that you go to a religious website with them if you must talk about it.
You certainly don't have to agree here with descent with modification from a common ancestor but I'm going to start clamping down on anyone positively arguing against it. It's simply counter-productive to our goals and reinforces the idea that ID is religion because nothing but religion argues against descent with modification from a common ancestor.
Emphasis from the original.
Sure, the site is called "Uncommon Descent," and that makes DaveScot's little rant extra funny. And sure, even fancy ID advocates at the Kansas hearings got a bit confused about common descent.
Sure as bloody hell took them long enough to admit that the evidence supports descent from a common ancestor, eh? Looks like the paradigm that may be dying out just may be their own.
Quote taken from the now ironically titled Uncommon Descent blog of Dembski, run now by Dave Scott, it seems.
Have a look at their comments section.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
Edited by - the_ignored on 01/31/2006 14:07:40
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 14:20:46 [Permalink]
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I got a laugh out of the comments in The Panda's Thumb, especially this one, which is apparently a quote:
quote:
South Carolina's governor is climbing aboard the ID bandwagon:
“The idea of there being a, you know, a little mud hole and two mosquitoes get together and the next thing you know you have a human being is completely at odds with, you know, one of the laws of thermodynamics.”
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 14:57:40 [Permalink]
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If the handful of pet "scientists" the fundies had rounded up for their failed ID campaign are beginning to accept "descent from a common ancestor," then for them, it's all over but the shouting. They would be effectively surrendering to the superior evidence of evolutionary theory. And they'll never again be trusted as front-men by the fundie Creationists. I wouldn't be very surprised if their very lives will be in danger.
This all probably means the complete abandonment of Intelligent Design is at hand. ID was only a lame tactic to get Creationism into the public classrooms, anyway. Now that tactic has been proven useless, and so it's tossed out.
Only the hard-core biblical inerrancy folks would be left with Creationism itself (or, as I like to abbreviate the term for convenience, "Cretinism"), and that stuff is hard to sell as science, to put it mildly. Nor does the Book of Genesis appear to have much chance to be accepted as a serious philosophy.
I hear a sound, the death-knell of ID. The abandonment of ID would mean that the fundies will move on to other issues in public, while keeping their Cretinism to themselves. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 15:27:34 [Permalink]
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It isn't over yet...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0131colleges.asp |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 16:14:59 [Permalink]
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the_ignored jotted:quote:
It isn't over yet...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0131colleges.asp
I read that article by Kurt P. Wise mainly as a complaint that in "... probably more than 90% of Christian colleges..." the battle for Creationist ideology has virtually been lost already. Even within their own Christian schools, Cretinism is failing.
This quote from the article is telling in demonstrating the depth of the Cretinists' problem within their own camp:quote:
As an example, the Tribune article mentions three biology majors at Olivet Nazarene College who entered the school as creationists, but who are now theistic evolutionists. As a further example, the Wheaton College newspaper shows the results of a student survey (42% of the students responded) which showed that whereas 47% believed in a young earth before entering Wheaton (the same percentage which Gallup finds for the population at large in its polls), only 27% believed in a young earth by the time of the survey. The same survey indicated that Wheaton professors were a greater influence on their age-of-earth belief than their parents were!
I especially love Wise's hilarious complaint: "And, if you want a young-earth geology major ... well, you're simply 'out of luck.'" Yeah, imagine how useful a young-earth "geologist" would be in the petroleum industry. What a laugh!
Wise also states: quote:
OK, but why can't you simply go to a Christian college and stand firm on the age of things? The answer, in my experience, is that believers can more easily stand firm in their Christian beliefs in a secular university (where you know you can't believe much of anything you hear about origins) than to stand in sectarian beliefs in a Christian college (where it's hard not to trust professors who stand before you in such good Christian standing).
I think that's desperately wishful thinking on Wise's part. If these fools can't win within most of their own institutions, I can't believe they will prevail in tax-funded, or secular private colleges.
Yes, the battle over Cretinism will continue. But I think it is going to fade considerably, as the fundies realize this is not an arena in which they can win. There are plenty of other arenas where they can make mischief more effectively. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 16:24:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
It isn't over yet...
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2006/0131colleges.asp
Who in their right mind would employ someone with a Bachelor of SCIENCE from a college that rejects science? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 22:18:54 [Permalink]
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Those cowardly skanks went and removed the blog entry from "Uncommon Descent" that the OP refers to. Click on the link now, and all you get is a page saying that the search failed.
Gutless...
Fortunately, some people have said that they've saved copies! |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 01/31/2006 22:20:19 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2006 : 22:25:12 [Permalink]
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the_ignored set down: quote:
Those cowardly skanks went and removed the blog entry from "Uncommon Descent" that the OP refers to. Click on the link now, and all you get is a page saying that the search failed.
Gutless...
I still see both posts via your original post's links. Or do you mean the Bill Dembski link at the Thoughts from Kansas site? Yeah, that's a dead link now. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/31/2006 22:30:09 |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 03:25:32 [Permalink]
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Is it over? Have we won? As long as xian fundamentalist is still poltically active, we will never win 100%. BUT, I think we have won A victory. When the supreme court struck ruled that teaching creationism was unconstitutional in 1987, that was a victory. It did not defeat these people totally, but it did set them back. This is what this is, a setback.
How big? I don't know. As it has been pointed out in this thread, ID was mostly used as a tactic to get creationism in the classroom, since they failed to get it in there directly. Now that ID has failed, they'll look for another method. There will still be a few ID battles, but I think the big high profile ones may be over for a while. Some people really DO believe in a kind of theistic evolution called "intelligent design", but they are few and far between, and even though they are major founders of ID, like Behe, they have only been tolerated in the modern ID movement by the young earthers who just want to use ID.
Now that the young earth crowd looks possibly ready to abandon ID, or at leasy devote much less attention to it as a viable option, I think ID in general will go back to the mild kingdom region of the fringes. Not too loony, compared to other stuff, but largely ignored. Without the young earth dominionist types, without the pat robertsons and falwells and so forth of the world funding them, ID won't have much political clout. Make no mistake. The ID movement, school of thought, whatever, devloped somewhat seperately from the young earthers, but they later took it ovver for their own ends.
So, this has rambled a bit, but, in short, I guess its a battle, not the war, that we may have won here. I expect that, if ID keeps being dealt blow after blow, the situation will be similar to the post 1987 situation with young earthers. Scaling back efforts, regrouping, and looking for another method.
However, the 1987 decision stopped them from trying at the national level to get creationism in schools. One tactic, aside from ID, was to focus more on the local level. That seems to have failed too. Perhaps a bigger focus now on private and homeschooling? It would go hand in hand with the repeated sentiment of the SBC to withdraw their kids from public school.
But the above article doesn't make that look like much of an option either, if even their own schools don't kowtow to them.
I don't think we've completely won, I don't think we're really close to winning, but we're not far either. Ideas die. They are abandoned. Many ideas, such as the flat earth, helientricism, etc. are dead, for all practical purposes. They still have a small number of adherents, but the ideas are dead.
I think that in the next few decades, in the next century, surely, if things keep going like this, young earth creationism will die too. I've always expected it to happen sooner or later. I think now we may be TRULY seeing the first death knells of Young Earth Creationism AND ID.
ID will actually die easier, I think, because fewer people are in to it, for lack of a better term. there are theistic evolutionists, but both them and the ID camp, similarities aside, seem to think, or at least act, as if the two ideas are not related. ID has largely been a curiosity among the ID writers and thinkers themselves. It was always a minority movement. It only got lots of public attention and wider support when the young earthers took hold of it.
Well, I don't know where I'm going with all this. Maybe you all will et something from my confusing, labyrinthine message. |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 04:13:07 [Permalink]
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I think that Intelligent Design, as any kind of a significant force, is really coming apart at the seams, mainly under the pressure of court defeats.
ID was really the last-stand version of Cretinism packaged for the public classroom. There are a few more places it'll be tried, but it's pretty much history IMO. As I understood the stuff on the_ignored's links, ID's proponents seem to me to be setting themselves up to fold into the existing Deist evolutionist movement, and will soon be largely dead as a separate entity. I think the Cretinist fundies are going to cut their losses and find other mischief, and probably are starting to seriously distrust the Discovery Institute folks.
In retrospect, the statement DI made just before the El Tejon district's capitulation shows how little DI wants to touch a religion "tainted" case. Since all of ID is smeared head to foot with religion, DI is basically just copping out. Its members are tired of losing, and probably also weary of looking like fools to the scientific community. Most of them probably knew better than what they were saying, but have been lying for their God's sake all along. Now they are questioning the righteousness of having done so. The pressures are throwing DI into ideological chaos, while pissing off the fundies who pay their bills.
There will be more shouting, but essentially it's over. The fat lady sang, and has left the building. The fundies are folding their ID tents and preparing to disappear into the night. Good-night, Mrs. Calabash, where ever you are.
I don't think even the new Supreme Court would accept ID, assuming someone even bothered to fight for it.
We should be happy for the recent victories against Cretinism, and the bigger one that appears to be coming with ID's demise. But his will not be the last of the battles we will have to wage for separation of church and state, or against those who wish to destroy science. The fundies will reappear with a vengeance. On thing they may try is simply to ban the teaching of biology or science altogether. Also, they may concentrate even more on stopping stem cell and AIDS research. Who knows where these people will pop up next?
Wack-a-Mole all over again. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 05:10:18 [Permalink]
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Compared to other belief systems, ID doesn't seem to have a lot of staying power, and the concept hasn't been around all that long. Johnson's Wedge, with no real basis in observable nor testable hypothisis, began tasting it's ultimate and unlamented demise in Topeka at the eloquent hands of Pedro Name-I-Can-Neither-Pronounce-Nor-Spell. And it's coffin was built in Dover. To paraphrase: "A house built on a sand foundation cannot stand."
Quote of the day: "Think of it as Evolution in Action." 
I agree that creationism en toto won't succumb so easily, and, to take the matter to it's ultimate conclusion, will never. Then sheer numbers of it's adherents (I'm including all religions in this statement) will prevent it. Soon enough, a Dembski clone(s) will slip it back in under another cloak and nom d'garbage, and it all start again.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 12:52:59 [Permalink]
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| I notice Bush in the Address mentioned the need to improve science and math education in public schools. I was waiting for him to add the alternative theories must be included or something about allowing alternative ideas but I suppose his handlers knew better. |
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Jason Barker
Skeptic Friend
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:44:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Compared to other belief systems, ID doesn't seem to have a lot of staying power, and the concept hasn't been around all that long.
Thats what I've been saying. Teleological and prime mover type arguments are very old, but in many ways, they've never enjoyed popular support, and have mostly been of inteerest only to christian intellectuals trying to reconsile this or that with their religion. |
Homer: He thinks he's so big, with all his money and wealth. But there's one thing he can't buy with his money.
Marge:What's that?
Homer:........a dinosaur. |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2006 : 13:47:40 [Permalink]
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One of my local town rags finally had something to say on the issue, and the Discovery Insitute.
http://seattleweekly.com/news/0605/discovery-darwin.php
Looks like they have definitely lost some of their forward momentum. They may be down, but not out.
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You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2006 : 16:40:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
the_ignored set down: quote:
Those cowardly skanks went and removed the blog entry from "Uncommon Descent" that the OP refers to. Click on the link now, and all you get is a page saying that the search failed.
Gutless...
I still see both posts via your original post's links. Or do you mean the Bill Dembski link at the Thoughts from Kansas site? Yeah, that's a dead link now.
Fortunately, someone has cached a copy of that Uncommon Descent blog article.
Dembski is trying to do some spin control, it seems.
Check out this EvolutionBlog article with commentary, for a more full discussion of this. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2006 : 22:47:39 [Permalink]
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"Life simpler than computers"
When one considers building a computer from scratch, they first must come up with a plan for what kind of computer they want, how much money they can spend, where to get the parts and the best price for each part. Then they have to go to the trouble of ordering all the parts, mainly a motherboard w/ processor, some kind of box to hold it, a power supply, memory chips, video card, sound card (although some boards have those built in nowadays), LAN card or wireless card or both, ports for USB and fire wire, hard drive(s), cd rom/dvd + or - burner or dual sided, floppy drive, card reader, a/v jacks, built in TV card, and on and on the list goes. The speed of your processor, front side bus, and ram memory play a great part in how well your system will work. But let's not forget the periphery items like a monitor, keyboard, mouse, battery backup, backup external drives, speakers, microphone. Each of these many items makes up your entire system. Each must be compatible and let's not forget the operating system: Windows, Mac, Linux, or other. Each part must fit together with the other. A single malfunctioning piece will lock up the whole system and either keep it from working at all, or cause it to crash. Sometimes you have to add cooling fans or a liquid cool system like Sony uses to keep everything from overheating. It's an amazing feeling when after all that planning and preparation and assembly, you turn on your machine and see it boot up for the first time!
But let's not forget about all the folks responsible for making this ingenious system work and all the thousands of experts trained in various fields working millions of hours to perfect each of their systems, from the makers of the boards, the solder, the plastic parts, the metal parts, the electronic chips, diodes, resistors, wires, screws, nuts, plates.... well, it would be hard to even name all those folks involved in your success. The years of labor represented are phenomenal. The intensity of planning and overcoming obstacles and mishaps; the billions of dollars spent to perfect and continue to improve the various systems of each company represented.
But, hey, biological life is so much simpler. The living organisms are like a single part of a big computer right?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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