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verso
Skeptic Friend

USA
76 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  11:44:57  Show Profile  Send verso a Yahoo! Message Send verso a Private Message
From http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/magazine/312wrongful.1.html :

quote:
What happened next — the years in which the Brancas came to love A.J. deeply and also to file a multimillion-dollar lawsuit claiming that Donna Branca's obstetrician's poor care deprived her of the right to abort him....


"We love you deeply, but we would have aborted you if we had known."

Nice.

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  12:45:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verso

From http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/magazine/312wrongful.1.html :

quote:
What happened next — the years in which the Brancas came to love A.J. deeply and also to file a multimillion-dollar lawsuit claiming that Donna Branca's obstetrician's poor care deprived her of the right to abort him....


"We love you deeply, but we would have aborted you if we had known."

Nice.



When the doctor is incompetent and does not properly advise the parents of the medical and developmental concerns of the fetus, then they should pay for the special needs.

Try, we have come to love you deeply, but we would have never put you through such extended pain, suffering, and poor quality of life.

Two sides to every coin, verso.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/15/2006 12:46:08
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  13:11:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
verso, you seem to have difficulty with complex human emotions. I have to say, I would feel exactly the same way if I was in those parents' position. And I have some personal experience with this having watched my Aunt and Uncle struggle caring for their son who has a disorder that causes severe developmental problems and other health problems. (I'm very close to them and have even been their nanny for 6 months.) Fortunately, my cousin's health problems, though serious, aren't as bad as the kid in the article's, and my Aunt and Uncle make a much better than average living. Things like this can tear families apart, ruin careers, and cause all sorts of suffering. Let's not just pretend that these choices are black and white.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 03/15/2006 13:12:51
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verso
Skeptic Friend

USA
76 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  13:30:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verso a Yahoo! Message Send verso a Private Message
The doctor should definitely pay for his incompetence. Not the child, however.

quote:
Try, we have come to love you deeply, but we would have never put you through such extended pain, suffering, and poor quality of life.


I haven't known many mentally handicapped people, but the 2 that I HAVE known were very happy to be alive - full of life and joy.

To decide for someone that their life will be of low quality, and then to decide to end it for them for that reason - is disgusting.

This obviously isn't true for many people, who truly believe their handicapped child will lead low quality lives, and think they are doing the best thing - but I would hazard to say - most parents will end the life because they don't want to deal with a handicapped child. Not because they believe the child will lead a miserable life. "We don't want our child to experience a low quality life" is a cheap, sick cop-out.
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verso
Skeptic Friend

USA
76 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  13:42:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verso a Yahoo! Message Send verso a Private Message
marfknox:

quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

verso, you seem to have difficulty with complex human emotions. I have to say, I would feel exactly the same way if I was in those parents' position. And I have some personal experience with this having watched my Aunt and Uncle struggle caring for their son who has a disorder that causes severe developmental problems and other health problems. (I'm very close to them and have even been their nanny for 6 months.) Fortunately, my cousin's health problems, though serious, aren't as bad as the kid in the article's, and my Aunt and Uncle make a much better than average living. Things like this can tear families apart, ruin careers, and cause all sorts of suffering. Let's not just pretend that these choices are black and white.



You, on the other hand, seem to have a lack of respect for life.

Ending someone's life because you don't feel it will be a quality life demonstrates this utter lack of respect for life.

They are extremely difficult decisions - I won't pretend they are easy. I do believe, however, that it is a black and white decision.
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  13:48:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

verso, you seem to have difficulty with complex human emotions. I have to say, I would feel exactly the same way if I was in those parents' position. And I have some personal experience with this having watched my Aunt and Uncle struggle caring for their son who has a disorder that causes severe developmental problems and other health problems. (I'm very close to them and have even been their nanny for 6 months.) Fortunately, my cousin's health problems, though serious, aren't as bad as the kid in the article's, and my Aunt and Uncle make a much better than average living. Things like this can tear families apart, ruin careers, and cause all sorts of suffering. Let's not just pretend that these choices are black and white.


I have a better example, Marf, which would happen to be myself.
[I have to leave the office now and go home, personal tale will come when I get home]

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  13:56:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verso

marfknox:

quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

verso, you seem to have difficulty with complex human emotions. I have to say, I would feel exactly the same way if I was in those parents' position. And I have some personal experience with this having watched my Aunt and Uncle struggle caring for their son who has a disorder that causes severe developmental problems and other health problems. (I'm very close to them and have even been their nanny for 6 months.) Fortunately, my cousin's health problems, though serious, aren't as bad as the kid in the article's, and my Aunt and Uncle make a much better than average living. Things like this can tear families apart, ruin careers, and cause all sorts of suffering. Let's not just pretend that these choices are black and white.



You, on the other hand, seem to have a lack of respect for life.

Ending someone's life because you don't feel it will be a quality life demonstrates this utter lack of respect for life.

They are extremely difficult decisions - I won't pretend they are easy. I do believe, however, that it is a black and white decision.




quote:
Ending someone's life because you don't feel it will be a quality life demonstrates this utter lack of respect for life.


Don't forget, she also said that this could "ruin careers". Why let some poor kid ruin a shoot at that promotion to second shift swing superviser?

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  14:34:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
There is a difference, I think, between choosing to raise children with physical disorders vs. those with mental deficiencies. I myself have physical disorders--I think we all do to some degree. But in the case illustrated in the article, it states that the child has the mental capacity of a 6 month old baby. Such a child isn't even sentient, and so any talk about the child's "happiness" is about meaningful as discussing a goldfish's "happiness." If I was an expecting parent informed that my child would be born as severely retarded as the child in the article, I absolutely would advocate aborting it. Human beings are given the potential to produce dozens of offspring in their lifetime. There is no logical reason not to terminate a fetus with a mental impairment caused by an irreversible genetic error and try again.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  15:14:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
verso said:
quote:
You, on the other hand, seem to have a lack of respect for life.


verso, you just don't get that "life" is not the most important thing in the world, do you?

If you honestly evaluate your own values you will probably place your own life somewhere in the top 10 things you value, but probably not in the top 3. Personal freedoms and your family will probably both be more important to you than your own life, maybe a few other things as well.

Just for a thought excercise: Pretend you are given a choice before you are born. You can choose to "live" with the mental capacity of a jellyfish, or you can choose to not live.

Which one do you make?



Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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verso
Skeptic Friend

USA
76 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  15:35:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verso a Yahoo! Message Send verso a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

verso said:
quote:
You, on the other hand, seem to have a lack of respect for life.


verso, you just don't get that "life" is not the most important thing in the world, do you?

If you honestly evaluate your own values you will probably place your own life somewhere in the top 10 things you value, but probably not in the top 3. Personal freedoms and your family will probably both be more important to you than your own life, maybe a few other things as well.

Just for a thought excercise: Pretend you are given a choice before you are born. You can choose to "live" with the mental capacity of a jellyfish, or you can choose to not live.

Which one do you make?



You're absolutely right - freedom is more important to me than life.

That's why I don't believe in making choices for other people - inculding mentally handicapped children.

You're also right, that my family is more important to me than my own life.

That's why I would make the sacrifices necessary to raise a mentally handicapped child, rather than end it's life.


Ending your own life because you think it's miserable is one thing, Dude, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about deciding to end someone elses life for them, because we think maybe that's how they'd want it.

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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  15:46:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message
Because they don't have the capacity to make their own decision. And because for them, it doesn't make any difference at all. I know that because I've seen it a thousand times, a child who won't even blink, without a shred of thought in her mind - literally, no shred - being forced to live. I believe that is inhumane.

And yes, that's why I've thought about suicide time and time again. My mother's life, which I ruined, is far more important to me than my pathetic existence and I'm not even mentally handicapped. She wanted me. She wouldn't have aborted - though she did it at least twice before. I was a healthy baby who turned ill. I would, given an opportunity, end my life if I were sure it'd bring her and my sister happiness. I know it won't - they love me - hence why I haven't yet.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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verso
Skeptic Friend

USA
76 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  16:20:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verso a Yahoo! Message Send verso a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Because they don't have the capacity to make their own decision. And because for them, it doesn't make any difference at all. I know that because I've seen it a thousand times, a child who won't even blink, without a shred of thought in her mind - literally, no shred - being forced to live. I believe that is inhumane.

And yes, that's why I've thought about suicide time and time again. My mother's life, which I ruined, is far more important to me than my pathetic existence and I'm not even mentally handicapped. She wanted me. She wouldn't have aborted - though she did it at least twice before. I was a healthy baby who turned ill. I would, given an opportunity, end my life if I were sure it'd bring her and my sister happiness. I know it won't - they love me - hence why I haven't yet.



What is the value of life? Why is it valued?

From your naturalistic viewpoints - I'm curious. Is it simply what is good for society from an evolutionary perspective?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  16:37:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
verso said:
quote:
You're absolutely right - freedom is more important to me than life.


Yet you think you have the right to force your arbitrary belief about when life begins on other people, depriving them of the personal freedom to make their own decision about when life begins.

Until you can demonstrate that your personal belief is non-arbitrary, present evidence, and rationally defend that evidence in support of your position.... you don't have the right to impose your belief on others. Freedom > Life.

I think you even agree that your freedom is worth more to you than the life of another person. If anyone were to try and unjustly deprive you of your freedom (or your family's freedom) you'd happily murder them and then celebrate. (I know I would)

So, if a fully grown human life is worth less to you than your own freedom, why would a mere "potential life" (with an admitedly slim 25% chance to be born normally) be something you'd deprive another person of their freedoms over?

Yes, you can argue that a person doesn't have the right to unjustly deprive another of their life, but you first need to make the case that a fertilized egg IS a human life. Evidence, logical argument that properly supports the evidence, etc...

Do you not realize that this debate would be a non-issue if you had such a thing? There'd be no argument.

The problem is that no such evidence and argument exists, nor will it ever.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  17:19:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verso
What is the value of life? Why is it valued?

From your naturalistic viewpoints - I'm curious. Is it simply what is good for society from an evolutionary perspective?


What is the value of life and why do you value it from your supernatural viewpoint? I'm curious. Since you believe the material body is merely a vessel--a prison if you like--for the soul, why would you place supreme importance on keeping souls trapped in non-functioning bodies? Do you have any logical reason behind your beliefs other than a purely emotional reaction?


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/15/2006 17:20:26
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  18:13:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
verso wrote:
quote:
To decide for someone that their life will be of low quality, and then to decide to end it for them for that reason - is disgusting.
You've just stumbled once again into the debate over the personhood of “human life” status of a embryo or nonviable fetus. It isn't “disgusting” when we're talking about a potential but not actual person.

verso wrote:
quote:
You, on the other hand, seem to have a lack of respect for life.
Here we go again with the loaded “life” rhetoric. Bacteria are alive. Trees are alive. My cats are alive. And sure, an embryo is alive (though many people here will even debate you one that.) That isn't enough. An embryo is also a highly undeveloped parasite on its mother. It is not a person. It should not get the same acknowledgement and rights as viable humans.
quote:
Ending someone's life because you don't feel it will be a quality life demonstrates this utter lack of respect for life.
Again, you assign personhood to nonviable human life. I do not. In fact, I would have no moral qualms with terminating an early term pregnancy right now purely because I would find it inconvenient for myself and my husband. An embryo is not a person. Its ability to think and feel is significantly less than the cow I just ate for dinner.
quote:
They are extremely difficult decisions - I won't pretend they are easy. I do believe, however, that it is a black and white decision.


One needs only glance at the huge range of positions people take on abortion as well as the huge range of state laws and the ruling of Roe v Wade itself to know it is not a black and white issue.

It is absurd to bestow the full status of human personhood starting from conception. Think about it – by that logic we would have to ban potential abortifacients like the pill, early abortifacients like the morning after pill, and we could prosecute women for child endangerment if they smoke or drink or do anything at all that could endanger the life or health of the embryo/fetus. If you disagree with any of that, you have already moved into a gray area. verso wrote:
quote:
You're absolutely right - freedom is more important to me than life.

That's why I don't believe in making choices for other people - including mentally handicapped children.
Yes, you do believe in making choices for other people. You want the government to limit women's reproductive rights. I said in a different discussion to you about this – while the life and personhood of the embryo/fetus is highly debatable, the life and personhood of the woman is not. And in a free society, we give people total rights over their own bodies.
quote:
What is the value of life? Why is it valued?

From your naturalistic viewpoints - I'm curious. Is it simply what is good for society from an evolutionary perspective?
I don't think anyone

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Bill scott
SFN Addict

USA
2103 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2006 :  20:53:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Bill scott a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia

Because they don't have the capacity to make their own decision. And because for them, it doesn't make any difference at all. I know that because I've seen it a thousand times, a child who won't even blink, without a shred of thought in her mind - literally, no shred - being forced to live. I believe that is inhumane.

And yes, that's why I've thought about suicide time and time again. My mother's life, which I ruined, is far more important to me than my pathetic existence and I'm not even mentally handicapped. She wanted me. She wouldn't have aborted - though she did it at least twice before. I was a healthy baby who turned ill. I would, given an opportunity, end my life if I were sure it'd bring her and my sister happiness. I know it won't - they love me - hence why I haven't yet.






quote:
And yes, that's why I've thought about suicide time and time again. My mother's life, which I ruined, is far more important to me than my pathetic existence and I'm not even mentally handicapped. She wanted me. She wouldn't have aborted - though she did it at least twice before. I was a healthy baby who turned ill. I would, given an opportunity, end my life if I were sure it'd bring her and my sister happiness. I know it won't - they love me - hence why I haven't yet.



Your dilemma is that you have no hope for eternal life. We all might not share the same struggle but I agree with H. when he says: “I myself have physical disorders--I think we all do to some degree” I will go one further. I think, when honest, we all can agree that everyone struggles in this life. If not with a physical challenge then maybe mental. My point is we all struggle to make it through this journey we call life. If your hope is a naturalistic hope then no wonder you have suicidal thoughts. For you this cold and dark world is all there is, and then you die. This meaningless existence is shared by all who have no eternal hope.

That is why the rich and the famous and those who have all of the best the world has to offer always seem to end in despair. Those who we thought had everything going for them and then one day we find out that they struggle as well. Rock Stars, Hollywood actors, Sports stars, tycoons, etc… etc… People who we think “had it all” and yet they find life to be just as meaningless, even with the money or fame, and end up in despair, or worse.

VH1 does the documentary on older bands I think called “behind the music” Spends an hour covering the rise of different bands such as Metalica, Def Lepard, AC/DC, OZZY, Milli Vanili, Run DMC, Vanilla Ice, etc… etc… 99% are the same story repeated over and over and over. They all start out poor with nothing and sacrifice all to get to the promised land of riches and fame, only to find out that all the pleasures that this world has to offer still ends in meaninglessness. After giving their whole life to reach their promise land they find empty darkness and then start a spiral of numbing addictions to help erase the reality they just discovered.

I heard a saying once: “The poor have more hope then do the rich. The poor still have the hope that money can bring them happiness while the rich know better.” Once you get to the top and still find darkness and a meaningless existence there, then where can you go from there but down? And so we see the millionaire rock star, sports figure, actor, who we think has it all, throw it all away with a self-destructive life style. Why? They have been to the top, they have all they want at their beck and call, and yet they still find

"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-

"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-

The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-

Edited by - Bill scott on 03/15/2006 21:06:53
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