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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2006 : 23:34:56 [Permalink]
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Chippewa wrote: quote:
I deny it. Calling oneself liberal while falling right inline with a Fox News style Neocon frame: "tons of liberals" being "politically simple minded" no doubt would bring a smile to Carl Rove as he maps out the next set of so called fair and balanced beliefs for those who lack critical thinking.
So I guess I just imagined all those moron liberals from college and graduate school, and the bar I hung out in in Ohio, and the coffee house I worked at, and the ones that Penn and Teller make fun of on their show "Bullshit". Even though I don't have cable and get 90% of my news from NPR, I must be somehow plugging into the Fox News Network and subconsciously absorbing their message. Because, you know, no liberal would ever be critical of other liberals unless they were brainwashed by the likes of Bill O'Reilly.
quote:
It is more likely that there are tons of intelligent liberals to whom humor and rhetoric serves as a lighthearted introduction to serious issues. BTW, (Insert insult here). (Please, no one interpret what I've said as an insult as I don't understand how to interpret properly what they've posted. (Insult No. 2) Analysis: (Parody – a form of humor.)
All you wrote was "Great fun. And ...all true!", which is so short and vague that it could be interpreted different ways. I didn't say "I don't understand how to interpret..." I was interpreting what you said one way to make a general point, then admitted that you personally may have not meant it that way, and so it was not a personal insult to you. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/21/2006 23:36:21 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 23:47:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
People take jokes seriously while simutaneously recognizing the humor all the time. That's why sometimes when Jay Leno tells a joke about a particularly controversial issue, the audience both laughs and does a low-pitched "ooooooooo". People who study pop culture analyze things that were never meant to be analyzed all the time. If someone critically analyzed a joke from the Tonight Show as a way to understand something about mainstream public opinion, that could be totally valid.
And is that the case here? Well, let's look at the first numbered point.
1. Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.
Well, conservative christians are a large portion of the Republican base, and many of them do find homosexuality a moral failing. Eager to exploit this, many Republican legislators have constructed laws designed to impinge upon gay rights. Also, conservative pundits have convinced a large portion of their audience that Hilliary is nothing less than a commie lesbian. So, yes, buried within the humor there absolutely are salient points. I would consider this a "valid" reading.
But is this the sort of thing you attempted? Let's see. You wrote:
Can you please quote the Party leaders who have said, in official Repupublican capacity, that “Jesus loves you” and you should hate homosexuals and Hillary Clinton?
Hmm. Rather than recognizing this statement as a form of humor playing upon well-known generalities, you pretend as if it was presented as fact. I mean, "please quote the Party leaders who have said, in official Repupublican capacity, that 'Jesus loves you?'" That's the objection you bring up? Unless it is a word-for-word transcription of the official Republican position then the statement is invalid? Just who do you think you're snowing, anyway? By purposely distorting the intended message of the line, your attempt at "critically analysing" it becomes nothing more than a red herring. Of course beskeptigal can't find a word-for-word quotation, but the statement isn't supposed to be taken at face value, so your objection is meaningless, as is the rest of them. It does however nicely sum up fundamental positions held by a good majority of conservatives and Republicans, so there is nothing "invalid" or "empty" about the humor or the subjects it touches on.
quote:
Context is important here. This list, while including elements of humor, does not present itself as merely a joke. Beskeptical, was it only posted to be funny, or did you also mean it as a legit criticism of Republicans?
Well, I'm sure it depends on what you think a legitimate criticism entails. Is making a few liberals smile and reminding them in a humorous manner that voting in the upcoming elections is important a "legitimate" purpose? I don't see why not. But the purpose of this missive is to "preach to the quoir" so to speak, and so it does not hold up as a rigorously-argued and well-reasoned counter to Republican policies. However, since the aim of this email isn't to sway neutral or hostile parties (remember: context is important here), any attempt to judge it on such grounds would obviously be completely disingenuous.
quote:
I don't think the author or most of the people who eagerly circulate this list "get" the irony of harping on Republican rhetoric with Democratic rhetoric that is just as lame, or about calling Republicans hypocrits for the same type of political action that all politicians must and do engage in.
Who cares what you find "lame?" Or does this all just really boil down to you chiding members for what you personally find to be "unhelpful" or "non-constructive" posts again? The fact that you would insinuate that anyone who enjoys to poke fun at Republicans are just simple-minded liberals who rely on jokes for the totality of their political education is fucking insulting, but more importantly it's wrong. This is a joke thread. It's meant to be humorous. It's really fine if you don't laugh or are offended enough to post an honestly unfavorable reaction like verso did. But it's a crock to present your purely emotional reaction under this veil of "critical thinking" rhetoric. Couching your opinions in objective sounding terminology doesn't change the fact that they are still opinions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/22/2006 00:06:26 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 01:43:54 [Permalink]
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Very funny list. Good satire. Lousy critisism. If it's just used for a laugh then there's no harm in it. The sad thing though is that a lot of people do treat this type of thing as if it was a legitimate argument. I think maybe the humor sells it in some peoples minds. Or maybe it just gets people thinking about the issues that they wouldn't have otherwise.
I just cringe whenever debate gets stifled by a list of talking points, slogans and sound bites and thats basically what this is. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 02:58:04 [Permalink]
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Jesus H. Spaghetti Monster! Rarely have I seen such a great to-do over so little. B'gal should have posted this in Humor, maybe, but so what? It still reads the same and I, for one, got a chuckle out of it. The grain of truth, however tenuous, in each example gives it it's kick.
Except 17. I thought that was pretty lame....
These things have been around for as long as politics. Hammurabi his ownself might well have scratched one out on a clay tablet and passed it around amongst his drinking buddies -- assuming he had drinking buddies. Hell, I once got one concerning Nixon, fucking Kissinger, and Vietnam published in a newspaper. Got some *ahem* interesting replies.
It's all throw-away stuff.
But, it's in Politics, not Humor, which leaves it open to critical discussion, warranted or not. So I'll cherry pick a couple and, briefly, join the fray....
7. If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.
Like hell they won't! A large portion of the religious right is still living in the '50s, back when a condom machine (three for a quarter) in a filling station crapper within a mile of a school was considered to be an awful thing and sex just wasn't done. Or so it was thought.
Wake up call, RR folks: we wanted to get laid just as badly back then as kids do now, and many of us did so at any opportunity, the rubber dispenser in the scungy shithouse at the Shell station down the road not withstanding. There were not a few knocked-up girlfriends dropping out of school and going to live with relatives for a while, and not a few "childhood sweethearts" getting married.
14. Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery. This is a not so subtle dig at the blatherskite Limbaugh, who just might die of old age before he ever goes to court. Had it been thee or me, we'd have long since been processed and would today be either exonerated or serving a sentence.
But I find myself reminded that Noel Bush got locked up, sent to rehab, and did some kind of community service, or probation, or somesuch, so it ain't all an hypocritical show of favoritism to the rich and the loud. Just a goodish part of it. And Noel got off pretty lightly. Had it been thee or me....
17. Support hunters who shoot their friends and blame them for wearing orange vests similar to those worn by the quail. Rewrite: The mixing of alcohol, gunpowder, and birdshot is a bad thing unless done by high-ranking politicians in the cause of eliminating quail Auschwitz-style. Any lawyer who interrupts this worthy undertaking deserves no better than he gets. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 05:34:14 [Permalink]
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Why can't we all just get along?  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 05:48:24 [Permalink]
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| It's cute, and largely true. However, the only difference between Republicrats and Demopublicans is that Republicrats are not afraid to announce that they're murderous thugs. Demopublicans attempt to appear caring about life and liberty and "Mother" earth while they slaughter impoverish people and poison the environment. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 05:48:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Why can't we all just get along?
Because we would all commit suicide out of boredom. A better question might be: Why must we always go to extremes in our disagreements?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 05:53:55 [Permalink]
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"I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed."
Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof,
In official recognition whereof,
I hereby affix my signature this
17th day of April, 2000.
"Jesus Day 2000" Proclamation |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 08:58:53 [Permalink]
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Humbert wrote: quote:
Hmm. Rather than recognizing this statement as a form of humor playing upon well-known generalities, you pretend as if it was presented as fact.
That comment was a direct response to this claim of beskeptical: quote:
These statements, with the exception of 17, come from public statements and /or actions made by not only Party leaders, but also some have been put out as 'talking points' memos.
quote:
Who cares what you find "lame?"
Obviously you do, though I'm not sure why. Seriously, chill out. quote:
Or does this all just really boil down to you chiding members for what you personally find to be "unhelpful" or "non-constructive" posts again?
I never chided anyone. If someone posts something publicly here, it is open to criticism. quote:
The fact that you would insinuate that anyone who enjoys to poke fun at Republicans are just simple-minded liberals who rely on jokes for the totality of their political education is fucking insulting, but more importantly it's wrong.
Oh, because that's what I did, right? *rolls eyes* quote:
This is a joke thread. It's meant to be humorous.
Whew! Well thanks for informing us all and clearing that confusing area up. Maybe you should send out a mass mailing to all the members of SFN that it is not cool to make serious posts in “joke threads”. Even when they're not posted in the “humor” section. quote:
It's really fine if you don't laugh or are offended enough to post an honestly unfavorable reaction like verso did. But it's a crock to present your purely emotional reaction under this veil of "critical thinking" rhetoric. Couching your opinions in objective sounding terminology doesn't change the fact that they are still opinions.
Like verso did? I did write one short reaction. The point by point list was a second reaction when beskeptical asked me if I was denying the hypocrisy. So I did a point by point response saying where I did disagree with the specific criticism. How is my response “purely emotional”, or even just “emotional”? My whole point was that this list is useless because nearly all of the points are either not really examples of hypocrisy or they are examples of normal political hypocrisy that all politicians engage in (and could be argued, must engage in.) verso gave an unfavorable reaction (that was, frankly, way more “emotional” than mine) that was also a criticism of the list's legitimacy as a sound criticism of Republicans. Matt put my exact same concerns much more concisely here: quote:
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/22/2006 09:01:44 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 09:16:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Why can't we all just get along?
Because we would all commit suicide out of boredom. A better question might be: Why must we always go to extremes in our disagreements?
Ah, the only way skeptics can give their lives any meaning is by arguing all the time with anyone about anything.  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 10:01:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Why can't we all just get along?
Because we would all commit suicide out of boredom. A better question might be: Why must we always go to extremes in our disagreements?
Ah, the only way skeptics can give their lives any meaning is by arguing all the time with anyone about anything.
Thats just bullshit pleco and you know it!  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 10:53:24 [Permalink]
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pleco wrote: quote:
Ah, the only way skeptics can give their lives any meaning is by arguing all the time with anyone about anything.
Hey, it beats ennui. ;-) |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 11:48:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
pleco wrote: quote:
Ah, the only way skeptics can give their lives any meaning is by arguing all the time with anyone about anything.
Hey, it beats ennui. ;-)
References please... It has yet to be proved that ennui is anything but a rapturous state where no one is shooting at you.
Say.... Here's another that just came to mind:
18. To be a Republican, you must believe that Ronald Reagan was the greatest president ever and that the 29 felony convictions in his administration were all frame-ups masterminded by a bitter and vindictive cabal of George McGovern, Jimmy Carter, and their liberal henchmen.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:01:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
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How many republicans think global warming and tabacco's link to cancer are junk science, and that creationism should be taught in schools? I'll give ya a hint, it's no where near 100%.
Yet a very large percentage of Republicans elected a leadership that promotes this very thing.
This e-mail is satire. It isn't literal but it makes a valid point. If you want to focus on the insult to individual Republicans instead of the hypocrisy of the Party you are missing the point. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 13:04:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
I love how anytime anyone disagrees ever so slightly, or even cautions against shaky reasoning, the "accusations" start flying.
"Martha are you a Republican?...."
It's just a question, verso. It would be you that is putting accusations out there. |
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