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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2006 : 23:53:27
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Here's a good article by Howard Zinn that was published in The Progressive, titled America's Blinders: http://progressive.org/mag_zinn0406
quote:
It seems to me there are two reasons, which go deep into our national culture, and which help explain the vulnerability of the press and of the citizenry to outrageous lies whose consequences bring death to tens of thousands of people.
Of course Zinn talks a lot about history (he's the author of A Peoples History of the United States, though one of the reasons I'm posting this article is because of a recent conversation I had with my journalist father. My dad thinks that it is the ignorance of history, in particular the history of World War II, that is partially responsible for the surge and spread of Christian fundamentalism in America. His argument goes like this: Because people don't consider how badly WWII devastated all the other superpowers, and the US came in rather late and emerged largely unscathed, it is an accident of history that the US became the leading superpower and had remained so for these last few decades. But now, with things waining for the USA (the second-to-last paragraph in the Zinn article talks about some of the specifics), Americans are looking for something to blame. This is where the Zinn article comes back in: quote:
If your starting point for evaluating the world around you is the firm belief that this nation is somehow endowed by Providence with unique qualities that make it morally superior to every other nation on Earth, then you are not likely to question the President when he says we are sending our troops here or there, or bombing this or that, in order to spread our values—democracy, liberty, and let's not forget free enterprise—to some God-forsaken (literally) place in the world.
My dad's argument concludes that many Americans are buying into the demonization of liberals, feminists, gays, etc. because from our narrow perspective of history that only focusses on ourselves and not the state of the entire world, the most major recent cultural change was the sexual and social liberation of the 60's and 70's, and therefore that must be to blame for declining conditions.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 02:24:20 [Permalink]
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The reasons given are certainly true but I think it is much deeper than just not knowing history and being egocentric. The people in question are stupid all the way around. Look how many people don't know an ad is scamming them? They don't know that just because they had a personal experience it doesn't mean everyone else will have the same experience. They don't know that when two things happen near the same time that doesn't mean one caused the other. They don't know basic facts like how the tilt of the Earth causes the seasons. They can't name their Senator or Congressperson.
Of course they know who Joey is on Friends and the latest American Idol winner. They might know who won the World Series or the Super Bowl. 
As to the history, I think your Dad has the right idea but the wrong history lesson. Get a quick time line of history of the US and Britain's interference in the Middle East since 1900. That's an eye opener. We got rid of their elected leaders and supported dictators including Saddam. We divided up the oil reserves between the US and Britain.
Or there was recently some released NSA documents revealing Kissinger's support of Argentina's military junta that slaughtered thousands of young people in the early 80s. Of course it's now common knowledge we had the President of Chile assassinated only to have Pinochet take power and slaughter people in that country. And Bush tried to support a military coup in Venezuela just a year ago. Is it any surprise Hugo Chavez is outspoken against Bush?
The history of US intervention in all these countries tells you why the people there do not trust us, don't believe us, and certainly don't think much of the democracies we gave them in the past. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 05:16:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
The people in question are stupid all the way around. Look how many people don't know an ad is scamming them? They don't know that just because they had a personal experience it doesn't mean everyone else will have the same experience. They don't know that when two things happen near the same time that doesn't mean one caused the other.
Some people understand all that and still believe stupid things. Very intelligent skeptics here supported the present war. Some who have left or fallen silent still do. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 07:42:29 [Permalink]
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beskeptical wrote quote:
As to the history, I think your Dad has the right idea but the wrong history lesson. Get a quick time line of history of the US and Britain's interference in the Middle East since 1900. That's an eye opener. We got rid of their elected leaders and supported dictators including Saddam. We divided up the oil reserves between the US and Britain.
Great point. If Americans understood this sort of history, they would better understand what mid-east terrorism and distrust of the West stems from and realize that the way to end terrorism isn't through military action. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 09:40:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
beskeptical wrote quote:
As to the history, I think your Dad has the right idea but the wrong history lesson. Get a quick time line of history of the US and Britain's interference in the Middle East since 1900. That's an eye opener. We got rid of their elected leaders and supported dictators including Saddam. We divided up the oil reserves between the US and Britain.
Great point. If Americans understood this sort of history, they would better understand what mid-east terrorism and distrust of the West stems from and realize that the way to end terrorism isn't through military action.
How? The terrorists mistrust us because we are not Muslims. Unless we all become Muslims, the US will be attacked again. Do you really think that if we gave the terrorists what they want (except become Muslims), they will not still try to kill us? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 09:50:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
How? The terrorists mistrust us because we are not Muslims. Unless we all become Muslims, the US will be attacked again. Do you really think that if we gave the terrorists what they want (except become Muslims), they will not still try to kill us?
I would say this is a rather gross simplification. Given the many instances of colonial occupations, religious wars, supporting dictatorships, exploitation for resources, vast separation between the haves and have-nots, and other items, the common man in the mid-east has absolutely no reason to trust the West. This coupled with the exploitation by the religios-right in the Mid-east of these fears is what helps fuel the hatred for the West.
There were no terrorists until WE armed them and continue to give them reasons to hate and attack us. The religious factor is a facade used by those in power to push the populace.
And all we seem to do is to play into the hands of the demagogues in the mid-east by electing their twins and placing them into positions of power in our own governments.
The cycle continues ad infinitum...
Take away the reasons for the hate, and the hate goes away.
Funny, I see this analogous to the failed drug war. If we change our society so that drugs are not demanded by the populace, you win the war without using brute force. We can't stop the supply, and locking up users solves nothing. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 03/28/2006 09:57:13 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 10:08:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would say this is a rather gross simplification. Given the many instances of colonial occupations, religious wars, supporting dictatorships, exploitation for resources, vast separation between the haves and have-nots, and other items, the common man in the mid-east has absolutely no reason to trust the West. This coupled with the exploitation by the religios-right in the Mid-east of these fears is what helps fuel the hatred for the West.
For the common man yes, I am talking about the terrorists.
quote:
There were no terrorists until WE armed them and continue to give them reasons to hate and attack us. The religious factor is a facade used by those in power to push the populace.
It is all our fault? I am not saying that we have not had bad or immoral policy toward the middle east, but it is the terrorists that kill innocent people. Don't excuse people who cut off the heads of innocent men and women because the US has had some mideast policy. If you read the literature and the statements of what the terrorists say, it has more to do with religion than our policy.
quote:
Take away the reasons for the hate, and the hate goes away.
Really? You think that if we just leave the area and give in to what they want they will stop killing us? I have read the literature of the terrorists. It has little to do with our policies, it has everything to do with religion. I want to be clear that I am talking about the terrorists, not the common man in the middle east. They do have plenty of reason to dislike us.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 11:10:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
I would say this is a rather gross simplification. Given the many instances of colonial occupations, religious wars, supporting dictatorships, exploitation for resources, vast separation between the haves and have-nots, and other items, the common man in the mid-east has absolutely no reason to trust the West. This coupled with the exploitation by the religios-right in the Mid-east of these fears is what helps fuel the hatred for the West.
For the common man yes, I am talking about the terrorists.
quote:
There were no terrorists until WE armed them and continue to give them reasons to hate and attack us. The religious factor is a facade used by those in power to push the populace.
It is all our fault? I am not saying that we have not had bad or immoral policy toward the middle east, but it is the terrorists that kill innocent people. Don't excuse people who cut off the heads of innocent men and women because the US has had some mideast policy. If you read the literature and the statements of what the terrorists say, it has more to do with religion than our policy.
More like dogma instead of religion. The same kind of dogma that causes abortion clinic bombings. And they wouldn't have been so well armed and effective if we hadn't sold them arms to begin with.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 12:04:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Do you really think that if we gave the terrorists what they want (except become Muslims), they will not still try to kill us?
If your country was invaded in the course of a religious crusade, wouldn't you fight back?
That's how Middle-easterners see it: Christian Imperialistic America invaded Iraq on a Holy Crusade to force Christianity and Democracy upon them in order to steal their oil. Americans have a history of overthrowing elected leaders and setting up despots.
And now they are here to do it again...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 12:12:19 [Permalink]
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Robb, there is 100+ year history of American and British (and to a lesser extent French) intervention in the Middle East, in India, in SE Asia, in Latin America, and in Africa. With that intervention we exploited the resources by installing and/or maintaining very oppressive regimes. We literally over threw elected leaders who attempted popular reforms that would have improved the lives of the majority of people in those countries in order to maintain private ownership of the resources which we directly benefited from. These actions continued throughout the cold war often using the rationale that if we didn't control the countries, Russia would move in and do so. While the claim was continually made that we were saving these people from the horrors of communism, no attention was paid to the fact that it was our financial interests we were saving, not the local people's interests. And the horrors of dictators were no better, if not worse than communism.
It was only in that climate that anti-American fervor arose. And it is the leaders with those sentiments who are now exploiting religion to further their own power goals. It is the leaders who exploit the religion, not the religious belief that all infidels must die. Christian leaders have done the same through the centuries with the Crusades, for example. And if you have grown up hating the USA all your life with good reason, it isn't hard for leaders to exploit that sentiment. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 12:12:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And they wouldn't have been so well armed and effective if we hadn't sold them arms to begin with.
...and provided CIA training.
Another thing, while we are at it:
As long as American military engage in torture, and keep (sectret and not) prisons with unregistered civilians, America will have no moral ground what-so-ever to dictate that other countries should respect human rights. Why should a dictatorship adhere to it, when the "Greatest Democracy in the World(tm)" don't have to? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 12:26:04 [Permalink]
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The problem with damn near everyone is the focus on one or a few issues instead of the totality of all situations. No doubt your father has some right ideas but they cannot be divorced from hundreds of other contributing factors such as the civil rights movement or the wars in Palistine. To say that any one event is responsible for widespread beliefs is naive.
Not to mention that we on this page cant even talk about the same topics is telling, the post is about the spread of fundamentalism in the US and all the responses are about anti-americanism abroad and training our former enemies. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2006 : 03:12:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
The problem with damn near everyone is the focus on one or a few issues instead of the totality of all situations. No doubt your father has some right ideas but they cannot be divorced from hundreds of other contributing factors such as the civil rights movement or the wars in Palistine. To say that any one event is responsible for widespread beliefs is naive.
Not to mention that we on this page cant even talk about the same topics is telling, the post is about the spread of fundamentalism in the US and all the responses are about anti-americanism abroad and training our former enemies.
Well, Marf also mentioned her Dad's comments which is how the thread went the direction it did. I agree with you though that the complexity cannot be ignored. |
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