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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2006 : 11:24:43
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I teach kids in a pretty rough inner city area of Philly, and the other day while driving home, I saw a billboard for the "Stacy Zallie Foundation" that intrigued me. I went home and checked out their website: http://www.stacyzallie.org/
Here's the mission statement: quote:
The Stacy Zallie Foundation's mission is to assist women who have made the difficult choice of ending their pregnancy in finding a caring, non-judgmental resourse to help restore their happiness and reconnect with their loved ones and their future.
I was moved by how this foundation tries to de-politicize the issue for the sake of dealing with the real women and girls who deal with the issue of pregnancy and abortion.
It reminded me a bit of Hillary Clinton's stance on abortion. While she has consistently supported the freedom of women to get an abortion, she regards both unwanted pregnancies and abortions as tragedies that are largely avoidable, and she thinks the government should be working to help reduce unwanted pregnancies through sex education and the support of social programs for poor mothers and potential mothers. Here's a speech about abortion she gave to the NYS Family Planning Providers: http://www.nymag.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/features/11082/index.html
I'm not sure yet if Hillary's approach to this issue is a wonderful way to try to resolve the country's deep divide on this issue, or if it is just a move toward being a centrist that will inevitably help lead to the banning of abortion. My hopes say the former, my fears say the latter.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Edited by - marfknox on 03/26/2006 11:28:22
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 13:46:41 [Permalink]
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| Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies should be the first step in eliminating the need for abortions. As such, I support sex-education. Any unwanted pregnancy is a potential tragedy. However, I will never back an inch on women's right to choose for themselves. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 16:16:56 [Permalink]
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Dr. Malabuse: Bravissimo!
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 12:47:14 [Permalink]
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I appreciate that website as well.
It is very well stated - that neither party of the issue - pro-life or pro-choice - are very approachable for someone who is suffering from post-abortion grief.
Pro-lifers because it would appear that they hold the woman guilty of murder, and pro-choicers because to admit that there is grief implies that the fetus might be more than a "lump of tissue" after all. "Pro-choice Denial and Pro-life Condemnation."
I can't speak much for the pro-choice side, but for the pro-life side - it is sad that those suffering post-abortion grief don't feel they can approach "us." Yes, I do believe abortion takes a human life, but should the woman be held repsonsible for that?
I don't believe so. If you have been convinced beyond all doubt (and are in agreement with society) that the fetus is not a person, then I don't believe you should be held guilty for that murder. Whether or not the fetus is a "person" is obviously not clear-cut to most people.
Personally - and this is true of nearly all other pro-life people I have interacted with - I believe that support for women in that situation is critical. Non-judgmental, loving support. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 16:24:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ljbrs
Dr. Malabuse: Bravissimo!
ljbrs
It's rather logical: Before pro-lifers have the right to scream "bloody murder", they need to show that they are sincere about the abortion issue. The best place to start is to attack the root of the problem: human nature. Abstinence is against human nature: when the hormones rage at their peak, it's the biological signal to start procreate. Teaching kids by making them aware of what happens, what could happen, and how to avoid bad and unwanted things to happen is the best start. Teaching them how to avoid getting pregnant without giving up the "good part" will have much more impact. Teaching abstinence only is going to make kids want to know what it is that is so wrong, which will make them even more curious.
Edited to add:
Mal-abuse? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 03/27/2006 16:35:15 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 21:05:41 [Permalink]
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verso wrote: quote:
Yes, I do believe abortion takes a human life, but should the woman be held repsonsible for that?
I don't believe so.
Murder without a murderer?
I think the similar feelings and thoughts on this issue of both pro-lifers and pro-choicers (when it comes to sympathy for the women) make a more important point: abortion is NOT a black and white issue, and the solution is not either extreme. Hilary Clinton made the point: "Any unwanted pregnancy is a tragedy." It is a tragedy if it results in abortion, and it is also a tragedy if it results in post-pardum depression or psychosis, poor parenting, or having to make the painful choice of giving a newborn child up for adoption. And how severe any of those tragedies are depends on the circumstances of each individual woman. Some women have abortions and feel zero emotional reprocussions. Other women feel crippling guilt that last for years. Some women who decide to have and care for babies end up being great moms, but others neglect or abuse their child. Some women give their children up for adoption with little regret or second thought. Others feel guilt and regret it for the rest of their lives. This is why it is a shame that abortion has become such a polarized issue. Women need society's support. They need to all have access to education about reproduction and birth control. They need to have financial and psychological support if they are poor, single, or ill mothers. And they need to have control over their own bodies within reason. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/27/2006 21:06:19 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 02:28:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
I appreciate that website as well.
It is very well stated - that neither party of the issue - pro-life or pro-choice - are very approachable for someone who is suffering from post-abortion grief.
Pro-lifers because it would appear that they hold the woman guilty of murder, and pro-choicers because to admit that there is grief implies that the fetus might be more than a "lump of tissue" after all. "Pro-choice Denial and Pro-life Condemnation."
I can't speak much for the pro-choice side, but for the pro-life side - it is sad that those suffering post-abortion grief don't feel they can approach "us." Yes, I do believe abortion takes a human life, but should the woman be held repsonsible for that?
I don't believe so. If you have been convinced beyond all doubt (and are in agreement with society) that the fetus is not a person, then I don't believe you should be held guilty for that murder. Whether or not the fetus is a "person" is obviously not clear-cut to most people.
Personally - and this is true of nearly all other pro-life people I have interacted with - I believe that support for women in that situation is critical. Non-judgmental, loving support.
This is a little more rational post than some of your others, Verso. But I would just point out that you have lumped everyone into two unrealistic black and white categories. You may know the pro-life side better than I, so I can't say how valid your assessment of them is. But on the pro-choice side, I don't know a single person who would be worried about admitting any person suffered post-abortion. As far as I know, the pro-choice side only objects to the claims made that ALL women who have abortions suffer some kind of mental damage which affects them the rest of their life. That was the line pro-lifers were trying to spin a while back after some bogus studies that were done on women who had had abortions. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 07:20:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Hilary Clinton made the point: "Any unwanted pregnancy is a tragedy."
She did? I wasn't aware of that. Smart gal... 
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 10:00:52 [Permalink]
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marfknox:
quote:
verso wrote:
quote:
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Yes, I do believe abortion takes a human life, but should the woman be held repsonsible for that?
I don't believe so.
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Murder without a murderer?
I never said no one was responsible. I would hold those who convince the women that it is simply a "lump of tissue" responsible - those who possess the knowledge to know better. |
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verso
Skeptic Friend
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 10:43:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
This is a little more rational post than some of your others, Verso.
I assume you mean "this is a little more in agreement with what I believe, verso."
... unless everyone who disagrees with you is irrational. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 12:16:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verso
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
This is a little more rational post than some of your others, Verso.
I assume you mean "this is a little more in agreement with what I believe, verso."
... unless everyone who disagrees with you is irrational.
No, I mean more rational. I don't have a problem with anyone who disagrees with me as long has they have reasonable things to say. Blind religious faith based arguments are not rational, they are dogmatic. There's a big difference. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/29/2006 03:13:29 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 17:34:39 [Permalink]
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verso wrote: quote:
I never said no one was responsible. I would hold those who convince the women that it is simply a "lump of tissue" responsible - those who possess the knowledge to know better.
Oh now you are just being ridiculous. I suppose gang members who shoot down little kids in crossfires aren't murderers because they've been brainwashed by their local culture to believe that the white man is keeping blacks down so hard that being a gangster is the only way to rise in status and make a better living. Or I suppose child rapists who were raped themselves as a child should not be considered true abusers because they were emotionally convinced that such behavior was normal.
Every human being who hurts another human being does it for a reason. It doesn't mean we accept the reason. Most women in America who get abortions are literate adults. They can all easily research human development at a library for free. If abortion is murder, women who get abortions are murderers. If the women who get abortions are not murderers, abortion is not murder. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 17:39:35 [Permalink]
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| Oh, and incidentally, what the hell do you mean "lump of tissue"? I use arguments that an embryo and second-trimester fetus are undeveloped. In all the serious research I did on the ethics of abortion, I never came across anyone credible calling it a "lump of tissue". Maybe people use that for brevity in political conversations, but if someone is only listening to politicians to develop their sense of ethics, they are a moron to begin with. 95% of abortions aren't done to a "lump of tissue". But they are done to an organism that cannot think or feel in any way that is meaningfully human. And that is why I'd get an abortion if I got pregnant, and I guarantee, I wouldn't need any counseling from the Stacy Zallie foundation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/28/2006 17:40:22 |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 21:41:32 [Permalink]
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I'm not too far from south Dakota.this is food for thought:
we're all Dakotans
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all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2006 : 03:17:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trogdor
I'm not too far from south Dakota.this is food for thought:
we're all Dakotans
He mentions the distance to the nearest clinic. There was an offer to put a Planned Parenthood clinic on a Reservation in SD. It turns out the nearest PP clinic is also on the opposite side of the state. PP announced they cannot afford to open a clinic on the Reservation right now. So abortions are out of easy reach for the poor in SD already. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/29/2006 03:18:00 |
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