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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2006 : 09:47:57 [Permalink]
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| I don't see how anyone could draw the conclusion, that after years and years of locking up poor people, especially minorities, that that isn't the goal of the war on drugs. Certainly, there are people within the law enforcement community that believe differently, but to anyone who cares to look, there is no other reason. The same with war. The only reason for the 15 or so year war against the people of Iraq is #1) genocide, and #2) hegemony. All the talk about democracy, etc., is just talk. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 10:31:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[No German soldier was ever tried for following the order to invade Poland or France. They were tried for following orders to execute civillian prisoners.
Nuremberg very clearly stated that no one is excused for their crimes on the plea that they were just following orders. The fact that no one is prosecuted for a crime does not mean that what they did was not illegal. In fact, again, George Bush, Bill Clinton and most other presidents are criminals, and they will never be prosecuted. You could empty out the jails today and never do the damage that the living presidents have done, much less the dead ones.
[/quote]
And we addressed this, Gorgo. Let me sum up what we determined through Neuremburg.
1) A soldier has a duty to refuse an illegal order which violates the rules of warfare as delineated by the Geneva Convention.
2) A soldier sent to war with a foreign power who obeys the rules of warfare is not performing an illegal act nor is it an illegal order.
3) The illegality of the declaration of war by the power is immaterial for determining legal orders.
The soldiers are only held accountable for their actions in the war. Killing soldiers of the enemy is not an illegal act. Collateral damage civilian deaths due to ordinance malfunction or proximity to valid military targets are not illegal acts. Obeying an order to mobilize is not an illegal act.
As is accepted, it is up to the soldier to prove that what they were ordered to do was illegal.
At Neuremburg, people were punished for obeying orders that flew in the face of the rules of warfare which were later delineated by the Geneva Convention. The only exception was Admiral Karl Donitz, who was punished for issuing an order which the rest of the world's navies agreed fully with. (The Laconia Order)
Individual soldiers were prosecuted for inhumane treatment of prisoners of war, mass murder of civilians in secure areas, and genocide. They were not charged with nor convicted of invading a foreign country. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 10:38:32 [Permalink]
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| You are speaking out of your area of expertise, so I have no reason to think that what you say is correct. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:10:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't see how anyone could draw the conclusion, that after years and years of locking up poor people, especially minorities, that that isn't the goal of the war on drugs. Certainly, there are people within the law enforcement community that believe differently, but to anyone who cares to look, there is no other reason. The same with war. The only reason for the 15 or so year war against the people of Iraq is #1) genocide, and #2) hegemony. All the talk about democracy, etc., is just talk.
Hmmm... well then I guess the 'goal' of law enforcment is to put people in prison. The 'goal' of the automobile industry is car accidents. The 'goal' of your local supermarket is to encourage obesity. Talk about being cynical.
The goal of the war on drugs is to stop/lessen the use of illicit drugs. I agree that it's been a failure at achieving that goal but that's the goal nonetheless.
If you try to sink a basket and miss does that mean that your goal was to lose the game to the other team if that was the result?
You're also taking liberties with the facts. 15 year war? The US hasn't been prosecuting this war for 15 years. They went in and came back out. They've been prosecuting the current war for what is it now? About three years or so?
And preventing genocide would be a legitimate reason to invade another country if only that were indeed the case. Or are you saying that the US's 'goal' was to commit genocide?
Well maybe you could make your points a bit clearer for me. Right now it all sounds a tad irrational. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:37:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Blame implies punishment. Fault implies some kind of character weakness. I'm not judging anyone.
Gorgo, you are so full of shit it isn't even funny.
When you accuse somebody of breaking a law, you are saying that they are at fault and should be punished. You are judging.
quote:
You are speaking out of your area of expertise, so I have no reason to think that what you say is correct.
Well, that settles that. Until you produce some credentials that indicate you are properly qualified to determine the legality of wars, we have no reason to think that you are doing anything but  ing out of your mouth.
Gorgo, almost everyone on this site would probably agree that this was in Iraq is of questionable legality. Most of us, at the very least, think it was a really bad idea.
Its just to bad that you refuse to comprehend why soldiers are not breaking any law even by participating in this war. Willfull ignorance is ugly.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:38:16 [Permalink]
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If I say I'm trying to hit the net with the basketball, and I keep hitting you in the head, how long will it take for you to suspect that I'm not really there to make baskets?
From the first gulf war to the sanctions to the present gulf war and all the bombings in between, for a while the bombings in between were a war in itself, sometimes daily, sometimes weekly. The destuction of Iraqi civilization, as well as the intentional murder of its people for many years constitutes genocide. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:42:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, that settles that. Until you produce some credentials that indicate you are properly qualified to determine the legality of wars, we have no reason to think that you are doing anything but ing out of your mouth.
Gorgo, almost everyone on this site would probably agree that this was in Iraq is of questionable legality. Most of us, at the very least, think it was a really bad idea.
Its just to bad that you refuse to comprehend why soldiers are not breaking any law even by participating in this war. Willfull ignorance is ugly.
I'm just echoing something that Valiant Dancer himself said.
That's why I'm citing experts in the field and you're just being as insulting as you can. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:50:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
When you accuse somebody of breaking a law, you are saying that they are at fault and should be punished. You are judging.
Actually, that would make no sense to me at all, so I am not saying that, and do not remember even implying that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 11:50:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
That's why I'm citing experts in the field and you're just being as insulting as you can.
I'm not being anywhere near as insulting as I can be.
And for every expert you can cite, there is at least one of equal credential who will disagree with him on this issue. Your continued insistence that the legality of this war is a settled issue is fairly pathetic.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:17:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You are speaking out of your area of expertise, so I have no reason to think that what you say is correct.
In the past conversation, I listed both the UCMJ and legal opinion on the matter. When you disagreed with it (if memmory serves) and instead insisted on your own interpretation, I questioned the validity of your expertice and the expertice of the opinions you listed as sources.
I note that you lack valid supporting evidence, Gorgo. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:24:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
If I say I'm trying to hit the net with the basketball, and I keep hitting you in the head, how long will it take for you to suspect that I'm not really there to make baskets?
Well it's easy to be cynical but that's not going to accomplish anything. Therefore Gorgo your 'goal' is to maintain the status quo. Get it?
quote:
From the first gulf war to the sanctions to the present gulf war and all the bombings in between, for a while the bombings in between were a war in itself, sometimes daily, sometimes weekly. The destuction of Iraqi civilization, as well as the intentional murder of its people for many years constitutes genocide.
Well the US is certainly not blameless but to call it genocide is a bit much. Iraq was not an innocent bystander on the world stage during that time.
They did often pose a real threat to stability in the middle east and did have nuclear ambitions and actively seek to obtain them. Let's not pretend that if only big bad USA hadn't beat up on good little Iraq that everything would be perfect now. Nuclear fallout is such a downer.
Bush jr's abysmal failure of a presidency is not a reason to absolve Saddam.
Seriously, if it were up to you, what would you have done all those years ago, when Iraq invaded Kuwait? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:34:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
In the past conversation, I listed both the UCMJ and legal opinion on the matter. When you disagreed with it (if memmory serves) and instead insisted on your own interpretation, I questioned the validity of your expertice and the expertice of the opinions you listed as sources.
I note that you lack valid supporting evidence, Gorgo.
I will review what you've provided in the other thread.
Thanks. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:35:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bush jr's abysmal failure of a presidency is not a reason to absolve Saddam.
Seriously, if it were up to you, what would you have done all those years ago, when Iraq invaded Kuwait?
I didn't say anything about absolving Saddam.
If it were up to you, what would you have done all those years ago when the U.S. invaded Yugoslavia, Panama, Haiti, Mexico.... |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:49:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
It is a legal order to illegally attack another country. By declaring war, Bush made any order to invade Iraq legal. The international community may yet hold Bush accountable for his illegal declaration of war, but never the troops. The troops are held blameless under the Geneva Convention as long as they did not commit overt criminal actions as outlined in the Geneva Convention and the UCMJ.
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/history.html
From what I can see, Valiant, this link has nothing to back up what you're saying here. Can you help me with this? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2006 : 12:53:57 [Permalink]
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V.D. says:
quote:
Whatever, Gorgo.
If that's what you got from that, fine.
You need to be right for this one, so I give. Chomski is God. The US is inherently evil and all soldiers fighting in wars you don't approve of should be criminals. To hell with international law unless it suits you.
Feel better now?
Chomski? What the hell does Chomsky have to do with anything? Is this more of your expert opinion? Evil? Where is anything that backs up what you say? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/10/2006 12:57:25 |
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