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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2006 : 11:37:47 [Permalink]
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Of the 20 or so countries which made agreements to give 7% of their GDP in aid, the US ranks last or next to last, as of a few years ago, and I dont remember Bush putting large sums aside for that purpose, since then.
We have upped our Aids $ but with the back-asswards Fundie no-condoms rule, thus making the increase in money nearly worthless.
As for immigrants we are far from accepting, maybe 25 years ago but not anymore. Try Canada. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 20:46:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
The US is made up of people of other lands.
It's a little difficult to follow some of your hysterics but listen honey, Please, please I beg of you..... Don't read any more of my posts. We don't want you do burst your head open from getting so upset. Or as the general said to Sideshow Bob, WHAT is your major MALfunction? (I think when Bob, who is a bit 'off', tried to blow up the dam.)
Marfknox you don't seem to reply appropriately to the comment, you go off on some misunderstood or misread tangent. So maybe it would be better if you don't answer. Of course if you just want to make a statement, go ahead but so far most of what you say is independent of what you THINK you are replying to in my posts. But don't worry, sweetie, there a couple of others here who do the same thing, we will try to be understanding of those who are less fortunate. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 21:12:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
The US is more generous than any other country when it comes to people of others lands.
That I will not believe until you provide some sources.
I watch so many documentary shows I thought I heard it somewhere, don't know where or if I remember correctly. I guess there's a way to find out. But tell me, you don't think the US sends a lot of aid all over the world? I do hear Americans complaining that the US sends aid to others but doesn't do enough to help it's own people. Perhaps that's only their perception because that's the way it looks. Most recently because of the problems in New Orleans.
quote:
quote:
It bends over backwards to accommodate everyone.
So is Sweden.
Unless by "any other country" you mean any other country that matters, with clout in the international scene. USA isn't the center of the world.
Hmm... I think I'd still like to see your source before accepting your assertion.
I don't exactly know all of what you are asking but the part that I said about bending over backwards meant:
Go into any DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) office and see how many languages there are for the drivers handbooks. Go to the schools and see how many papers are sent home with students in other than the English language. Go vote, I worked at the polls, we must display information in many languages and provide language assistance if possible. Those are to name a few money wasting situations that the government does that is more than is necessary to help. The source is my observations.
As for the USA thinking it's the center of the world, I only wish Americans would understand that they are not. America has no business being a bully in other countries. IMO Americans are pushy and don't try to understand other cultures. It's so sad to see many beautiful countries try to follow western ways and loose their traditions. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 22:22:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
I don't exactly know all of what you are asking but the part that I said about bending over backwards meant:
Go into any DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) office and see how many languages there are for the drivers handbooks.
We have an average of 4,5 million citizens per published language.
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Go to the schools and see how many papers are sent home with students in other than the English language.
Official papers, that I don't know. But any child who lives in a family where Swedish isn't the primary language, the schools are prescribed(?) by law to provide a certain number of hours per week in their own language.
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Go vote, I worked at the polls, we must display information in many languages and provide language assistance if possible. Those are to name a few money wasting situations that the government does that is more than is necessary to help. The source is my observations.
You are not unique in your observations. Most democratic countries (as far as I know) have this kind of service for their citizens.
State television airs programs specifically targeted for minority languages. Five, six, perhaps more languages (I haven't checked lately, because I prefer cable) if you don't count the "obvious" English, French, and German. Practically no programs are dubbed, but only subtitled in Swedish.
And in Sweden with practically 98% literacy, one of the top nations in the world, even though Sweden have it's own official language, all kids in school get at least 6 years of English as second language. And we're spared the most fanatically religious people too. God, I love my country.
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As for the USA thinking it's the center of the world, I only wish Americans would understand that they are not. America has no business being a bully in other countries. IMO Americans are pushy and don't try to understand other cultures. It's so sad to see many beautiful countries try to follow western ways and loose their traditions.
Ain't that the truth... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2006 : 23:19:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I happen to know that the construction industry pays above minimum wage for labor. Probably the farm and service industries do as well. What you are proposing would crush the California economy. It's as simple as that.
Well, I would argue that any economy based on illegal labor is on shaky ground to begin with. But I'm not convinced that forcing companies to employ legal workers would be quite as devastating as you suggest. Sure, the salad days of cheap labor may end, but I'm of the opinion that most companies squander profits on salaries and bonuses for the upper management anyway. The best way to ensure a healthy economy is to put that money directly into the hands of individual workers.
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The only people calling for the kind of change congress or you are proposing are those who do not actually work in those industries. Housing, food and many services would see a sharp increase in the cost of doing business that would be passed on the consumer.
What kind of increases? 3 cents more a tomato? 10 cents more for a bag of potatoes? I'm not convinced the increase would be all that sharp. And the housing market is already over-inflated. Housing prices have virtual nothing to do with labor and material costs and everything to do with market forces.
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And by the way, where the hell are all the poor Americans? They sure aren't going out and standing all day with the Mexicans and Salvadorians and such to do jobs that no one else is willing to do.
I might tighten up the border but I sure wouldn't go after those who are here or those who employ them. The cold hard fact of it is there is no one else willing to do those jobs…
I don't agree. I think that people might be willing to do those jobs if they paid a living wage. If companies knew they had to pay Mexicans the same they would an American citizen, then there wouldn't be any motivation to hire immigrants. And without an overabundance of available jobs, immigration would subside. The end result would be a stronger economy, not weaker, as more money would be placed into the hands of tax paying citizens and less untaxed money would be sent to relatives abroad.
The only people the current situation supports is big business. It ultimately harms everyone else.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/17/2006 23:21:28 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 06:20:39 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
It's a little difficult to follow some of your hysterics but listen honey, Please, please I beg of you..... Don't read any more of my posts. We don't want you do burst your head open from getting so upset. Or as the general said to Sideshow Bob, WHAT is your major MALfunction? (I think when Bob, who is a bit 'off', tried to blow up the dam.)
Marfknox you don't seem to reply appropriately to the comment, you go off on some misunderstood or misread tangent. So maybe it would be better if you don't answer. Of course if you just want to make a statement, go ahead but so far most of what you say is independent of what you THINK you are replying to in my posts. But don't worry, sweetie, there a couple of others here who do the same thing, we will try to be understanding of those who are less fortunate.
As expected: you just insult me and not respond one iota to what I actually said, not even to clear up how I “misread” you. At least you are consistent in that.
Also, has it occurred to you that if numerous people are so horribly misunderstanding you on this forum, that the communication problem is your problem, not theirs?
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 06:25:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
But don't worry, sweetie, there a couple of others here who do the same thing, we will try to be understanding of those who are less fortunate.
You know, I was thinking about predicting when Snake would do her standard "you're not smart enough to understand" nonsense in this thread, but she beat me to it.
However, the last line (quoted above) is just so over-the-top in its utterly rude condescension that I'm beginning to think that Snake is actually just a run-of-the-mill Internet troll. Can anyone really be so mind-boggingly abusive and think she's generous at the same time? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 08:13:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
H. Humbert:
Well, I would argue that any economy based on illegal labor is on shaky ground to begin with. But I'm not convinced that forcing companies to employ legal workers would be quite as devastating as you suggest. Sure, the salad days of cheap labor may end, but I'm of the opinion that most companies squander profits on salaries and bonuses for the upper management anyway. The best way to ensure a healthy economy is to put that money directly into the hands of individual workers.
Big companies? What big companies? I thought big companies were out-sourcing or taking their manufacturing to other countries to hold down costs. I'm talking about small companies who do the home building and remodels, gardening, farming and run restaurants. I'm talking about regular people who hire maids and housekeepers and babysitters. I'm talking about workers who are willing to fill the void doing jobs no one else seems to want. You know, labor.
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3 cents more a tomato? 10 cents more for a bag of potatoes? I'm not convinced the increase would be all that sharp. And the housing market is already over-inflated. Housing prices have virtual nothing to do with labor and material costs and everything to do with market forces.
We are importing produce from all over the world now. Profit margins are so thin that any upward force on prices by local farmers would put them out of business. You over simplify the problem…
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I don't agree. I think that people might be willing to do those jobs if they paid a living wage. If companies knew they had to pay Mexicans the same they would an American citizen, then there wouldn't be any motivation to hire immigrants. And without an overabundance of available jobs, immigration would subside. The end result would be a stronger economy, not weaker, as more money would be placed into the hands of tax paying citizens and less untaxed money would be sent to relatives abroad.
I pay between 100 and 120 a day for labor. And that is typical in the industry that I work in. That is far above minimum wage. It is, in fact, a living wage. As for motivation to hire American citizens, if you're talking about whites and blacks, where are they? There are American citizens in the labor pools. They happen to be mostly Latinos who came here as illegals. And believe it or not, many of the illegals pay taxes. They do that so when the time comes when they start filling out the forms to become citizens, they can show that they have been productive and taxpayers in hopes of being allowed to stay as legal residents.
quote:
H. Humbert:
The only people the current situation supports is big business. It ultimately harms everyone else.
Nonesense…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 09:37:07 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
Sure. But is there any reason, once they're patched up, for us to let an illegal alien continue to reside in the country? What would you have to say about a law which mandates that once hospitals accept an illegal alien as a patient, they contact the INS? Actually, I think you'll say that it'd drive people away from going to a hospital even when they need to, but I imagine that illegal aliens try to stay away in the first place, 'cause they think the hospitals will turn 'em in already. Even the NYT article, marf, didn't present the idea of illegal aliens dying on the street as a major argument against the law that passed - it was 99% worries about actual citizens who wouldn't get the care they are entitled to.
The article wasn't so much worried about Americans not getting care as much as it was worried about them not getting the care paid for by Medicaid, and thus being put into more debt or having hospitals eat the costs, which further screws up the costs of health care which are already so high.
As for why the NYT article didn't focus on the plight of immigrants, that hardly surprises me. Most news coverage isn't sympathizing with those people at all. They are being painted as criminals, pure and simple, despite the fact that they love this country, they aspire to contribute as hard-working citizens, most of them risked a great deal coming here, and the alternative to not coming here was utterly devastating.
Just listen to all the people bitching about the Spanish language being commonly used in the USA. People fear Spanish becoming a second American language. First of all, America doesn't have any official language. But more importantly, there are zero communities of second-generation immigrants that exclusively speak Spanish. Second generation always learns English because that is the language they need to get ahead.
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The US already supports many third-world nations with direct donations. Why should the US act as a welfare provider to the individual citizens of those countries, as well?
Who here has said that the US should just act as a “welfare provider”. I do think it is the responsibility of richer nations to aid poorer ones (just as I think it is the responsibility of richer people to aid poor people), but aid does not have to the only in the form of welfare. See http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=646822005
quote:
Africa needs trade, not aid; business investment, not state charity; and free access to Western markets, not sops designed to hide the fact we tax African goods out of our markets.
I think the United States is rather short-sighted in its dealings with Third World nations, and not especially interested in helping them become autonomous. Instead of encouraging those nations in peaceful and practical ways to develop strong economies with true democracy and a stable middle-class, we perpetuate their poverty and corruption with token donations that often benefit first world corporations. For example, over 80% of money donated to Africa for AIDS relief goes to American drug companies that charge Africans more for the medicines. According to the latest issue of The Economist, the US gave the second-lowest percentage of its GNP of foreign aid of the OECD in 2005 (that means the USA gave a lower percentage than 20 other first world nations).
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 09:48:22 [Permalink]
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So Kil, are you basically saying that most illegals do not work for less than minimum wage and that many pay taxes so that they are essentially acting as American citizens even though they are illegal?
I get the impression that you don't think we have an illegal immigrant "problem", but rather, the role that illegal immigrants play in American society right now is valuable to this nation. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 04/18/2006 09:48:55 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 10:43:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake said:
But tell me, you don't think the US sends a lot of aid all over the world?
Good point we have pumped billions into Irag and Afganistan. I think we are getting ready spend quite a bit of money on Iran too.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2006 : 12:29:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
So Kil, are you basically saying that most illegals do not work for less than minimum wage and that many pay taxes so that they are essentially acting as American citizens even though they are illegal?
I get the impression that you don't think we have an illegal immigrant "problem", but rather, the role that illegal immigrants play in American society right now is valuable to this nation. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
I don't know what Kil said but I do know many illegals are fully integrated into the community. Some of those that work in the food industry and in jobs where one contracts for services like builders and landscaping can earn substantial incomes. Generally it is in occupations that have looser oversight by the IRS due to the nature of payments. But I'm sure the majority of illegals do not earn much compared to legals. On the other hand, the majority of regular citizens don't exactly earn millions either. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 10:45:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
So Kil, are you basically saying that most illegals do not work for less than minimum wage and that many pay taxes so that they are essentially acting as American citizens even though they are illegal?
I get the impression that you don't think we have an illegal immigrant "problem", but rather, the role that illegal immigrants play in American society right now is valuable to this nation. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
I doubt that most do not work for less than minimum wage, and that most work for above minimum wage. It could be that live in housekeepers, if the total hours there were added up, might work for less. But really, I don't know. Remember that these people have to live too, and minimum wage would make working here hardly worth the effort. It's mainly teenagers who live at home that work for the minimum…
I also don't know what percentage pays income tax. I ony know that some do. And they do so willingly, not just because it might be deducted from a payroll check. Of course, it would be impossible to live here without paying taxes. Obviously, they pay sales tax and all of the other taxes we pay every day.
And your right. I do not see the problem the way many Americans seem to see it. That's because I see very hard working people willing to do what others will not do. Again, where are the born in America poor? People in my industry pay well.
I think the reason Bush is for a guest worker program is that he is from Texas. A state that would also be hard hit by making criminals out of the workers and employers. It is the one thing I can go along with Bush on.
I also think the illegal alien problem is largely manufactured by those who need a scapegoat for some ongoing economic problems that have nothing to do with the bottom of the labor force. I think xenophobia plays a roll in the current debate. Just look at the Minutemen…
I understand that there are issues like medical and such that need answers. And it would be nice if these people were here as a legal work force. That would make it easier on everyone, including the IRS and others looking for those answers.
Does this answer your question?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 11:05:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
So Kil, are you basically saying that most illegals do not work for less than minimum wage and that many pay taxes so that they are essentially acting as American citizens even though they are illegal?
I get the impression that you don't think we have an illegal immigrant "problem", but rather, the role that illegal immigrants play in American society right now is valuable to this nation. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding.
I doubt that most do not work for less than minimum wage, and that most work for above minimum wage. It could be that live in housekeepers, if the total hours there were added up, might work for less. But really, I don't know. Remember that these people have to live too, and minimum wage would make working here hardly worth the effort. It's mainly teenagers who live at home that work for the minimum…
I also don't know what percentage pays income tax. I ony know that some do. And they do so willingly, not just because it might be deducted from a payroll check. Of course, it would be impossible to live here without paying taxes. Obviously, they pay sales tax and all of the other taxes we pay every day.
And your right. I do not see the problem the way many Americans seem to see it. That's because I see very hard working people willing to do what others will not do. Again, where are the born in America poor? People in my industry pay well.
I think the reason Bush is for a guest worker program is that he is from Texas. A state that would also be hard hit by making criminals out of the workers and employers. It is the one thing I can go along with Bush on.
I also think the illegal alien problem is largely manufactured by those who need a scapegoat for some ongoing economic problems that have nothing to do with the bottom of the labor force. I think xenophobia plays a roll in the current debate. Just look at the Minutemen…
I understand that there are issues like medical and such that need answers. And it would be nice if these people were here as a legal work force. That would make it easier on everyone, including the IRS and others looking for those answers.
Does this answer your question?
Kil, a great deal of illegals work for cash picking produce. Housekeepers also work for little. Jobs offered on the up and up require a filing of the IL-4 Immigration status verification. Walmart didn't need them for the illegals working for the company they hired, but the company needed them for their workers.
Few illegals have manufactured identity documents due to the cost of them.
I believe that Marf is right about a class of worker underpaid and unprotected by OSHA.
I cannot support calling those folks felons. I still think they need to be deported. No amnesty. Didn't work in 86. Only serves as incentive to thwart the immigration law now. Build the wall and increase the number of green cards and personell to process immigration requests. Make the fines on businesses who employ illegals really hurt them, not be a slap on the wrist.
That's jes my $.02 worth. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2006 : 11:21:12 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
Does this answer your question?
Yes, and I pretty much agree with your opinions, especially this: quote:
I also think the illegal alien problem is largely manufactured by those who need a scapegoat for some ongoing economic problems that have nothing to do with the bottom of the labor force. I think xenophobia plays a roll in the current debate.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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