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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2006 : 11:36:32
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Ethanol is being touted as a replacement for gasoline. President Bush, among others, is very enthusiastic over such biofuels. This article from Fortune magazine sets forth one very serious problem with that idea: quote:
Ethanol could leave the world hungry
One tankful of the latest craze in alternative energy could feed one person for a year, Lester Brown tells Fortune.
By Lester Brown
August 16 2006: 5:39 AM EDT
(Fortune Magazine) -- The growing myth that corn is a cure-all for our energy woes is leading us toward a potentially dangerous global fight for food. While crop-based ethanol -the latest craze in alternative energy - promises a guilt-free way to keep our gas tanks full, the reality is that overuse of our agricultural resources could have consequences even more drastic than, say, being deprived of our SUVs. It could leave much of the world hungry.
We are facing an epic competition between the 800 million motorists who want to protect their mobility and the two billion poorest people in the world who simply want to survive. In effect, supermarkets and service stations are now competing for the same resources.
. . .
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 12:53:35 [Permalink]
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| I am waiting for the obvious to reach the news media. You can't change food production into fuel production without dire consequences. It's insane, unless the source is some byproduct like the inedible parts of a plant and if not returning the nutrients of the inedible parts of the plant doesn't deplete the soil. Not to mention if fuel plants become too profitable compared to food plants what would happen. Look at the poppy and cocaine trades for examples of that. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2006 : 12:58:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
We are facing an epic competition between the 800 million motorists who want to protect their mobility and the two billion poorest people in the world who simply want to survive. In effect, supermarkets and service stations are now competing for the same resources.
This is only a problem when you examine the technology as it currently stands. As it is now only the part of plants rich in simple sugars are suitable for creating ethanol.
The goal is to be able to turn the cellulose (the most abundant polysaccharide in plants, makes up the cell walls) into ethanol in an efficient process.
Once that is attained you can churn out ethanol by the tanker load and not use any food-crop to do it.
I have always thought that the implicit statement in Bush's support of this area was to advance the science to the point we need it at. That could, of course, just be my own bias and optomism talking though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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sack of kittens
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 04:02:49 [Permalink]
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Ethanol is also being pushed as it is argued that it less polluting in terms of co2 . However , if one also considers the fermentation process this does not hold up . To further muddy the waters though , corn is at least recycling atmospheric co2 as opposed to simply releasing buried co2 like gasoline . In terms of climate change then there does need to be more analysis , but in terms of fuel insted of food it could be disasterous , particularly when climate change is added into the equation and the areas of the world where crops are no longer suited to higher tempreture are considered. Bad idea I say.
edited due to my permenantly bad spelling etc. There are more but something important and many other things. |
| Edited by - sack of kittens on 08/17/2006 04:07:20 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 05:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sack of kittens
Ethanol is also being pushed as it is argued that it less polluting in terms of co2 . However , if one also considers the fermentation process this does not hold up . To further muddy the waters though , corn is at least recycling atmospheric co2 as opposed to simply releasing buried co2 like gasoline . In terms of climate change then there does need to be more analysis , but in terms of fuel insted of food it could be disasterous , particularly when climate change is added into the equation and the areas of the world where crops are no longer suited to higher tempreture are considered. Bad idea I say.
edited due to my permenantly bad spelling etc. There are more but something important and many other things.
Not to mention the incredible swaths of rain forest cleared to grow the plants for ethenol. It also is much harder on the engines of these machines, causing a large decrease of mileage, aprox. 80,000 if memory serves me.
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 07:39:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sack of kittens
Ethanol is also being pushed as it is argued that it less polluting in terms of co2 . However , if one also considers the fermentation process this does not hold up .
When it comes to discussions about C02 pollution, the deal is net increase in atmospheric C02.
Fermentation of cellulose does not release fossil carbon, hence it does not give a net increase.
A modern car engine (Otto engine) reqires ~25-30% more E85 than gasoline.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 12:10:26 [Permalink]
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Nobody is arguing that ethanol does not have drawbacks, but an additional question could be: Why is Brazil's ethanol program more successful?
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6817
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 13:53:34 [Permalink]
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O.I. siad:
quote:
Not to mention the incredible swaths of rain forest cleared to grow the plants for ethenol.
Large scale destruction of rain forests in S. America has been an ongoing problem for decades. They don't do it just to grow plants for ethanol.
In the US we pay farmers to not grow food/cash crops in some instances, to prevent an excess.
sack of kittens said:
quote:
Ethanol is also being pushed as it is argued that it less polluting in terms of co2 . However , if one also considers the fermentation process this does not hold up .
Huh?
While burning any hydrocarbon releases CO2 into the atmosphere, the CO2 from ethanol was taken from the atmosphere as the plant grew. The fermentation of ethanol does not increase the net CO2.
O.I. said:
quote:
It also is much harder on the engines of these machines, causing a large decrease of mileage, aprox. 80,000 if memory serves me.
Can you provide some clarification here? I'm not sure what you are saying.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:11:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
It also is much harder on the engines of these machines, causing a large decrease of mileage, aprox. 80,000 if memory serves me.
Can you please dig up a citation for this? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:12:48 [Permalink]
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The problem, as I see it, is that corn is really not an ideal crop for ethanol production. It's slow growing, requires lots of water and energy in the form of petroleum based fertilizers, and of course is also a food source. The only real reason it's even being pushed for ethanol production is that it's what we already have growing in the fields. That, and because the tax incentives make selling corn for alernative fuels more profitable than selling it as food, the sizable corn lobby pressured congress into adopting corn as a primary biofuel crop.
There are other plants which can be grown that are much better than corn for the purposes of producing ethanol. Some literally grow like weeds and require virtually no maintenance.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 14:29:17 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
There are other plants which can be grown that are much better than corn for the purposes of producing ethanol. Some literally grow like weeds and require virtually no maintenance.
Yeah, the point of the whole ethanol research program is to find an efficient (read energy out > energy in, and a product that can sell for more than it costs to make) method of making ethanol from cellulose.
The current methods, like using corn, only use the fruit. The carbon trapped in the plant as cellulose is not used.
But if they can make a profit from just that, then the incentive to make the process more efficient will be there. I hope.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 15:10:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
It also is much harder on the engines of these machines, causing a large decrease of mileage, aprox. 80,000 if memory serves me.
This sounds like conservative petroleum corporate propaganda to me. The only "problem" I've heard of is that ethanol has lower compression in cold weather, so the Brazilians modify their cars so when temperatures are cooler the car starts on gas and switches to ethanol once the engine warms up. Their processing is based on rice rather than corn. Engine ware is presented as a myth on the following pro-ethanol corn grower's website:
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/killing_myths.htm
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 15:34:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
...requires lots of water and energy in the form of petroleum based fertilizers...
I think that this is a major point. The depletion of soils from vital nutrients is already a serious concern. While we can make more nitrogen-based fertilizers (albeit at a large cost in energy [which is a bit counter-productive]), other nutrients such as phosphorous have to be literally mined. Mined, in this instance, often means removing avian-turd from remote islands heavily populated by birds. Our rate of extraction GREATLY exceeds the rate at which our winged friends can replace it. If we run out of this kind of resource, we are literally fucked. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 17:15:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
Nobody is arguing that ethanol does not have drawbacks, but an additional question could be: Why is Brazil's ethanol program more successful?
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=6817
Well, Brazil used to make quite a lot of money from sugar production. It was one of the three largest economic phases we had - extraction of wood, production of sugarcane and then, production of coffee. It happens that our soil is excellent for growing sugarcane, or so I'm told. Naturally, we don't use only sugarcane as a source. The farms were already there, it was just a matter of adapting them to a new production.
As the article posted says, we have a history of producing sugarcane. Although the number of ethanol cars has been staggering (we also use natural gas or some such, I don't know the english name), the new flex cars brought it up again. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2006 : 18:01:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Well, Brazil used to make quite a lot of money from sugar production. It was one of the three largest economic phases we had - extraction of wood, production of sugarcane and then, production of coffee....the new flex cars brought it up again.
Thanks for the info!  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2006 : 06:32:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent
It also is much harder on the engines of these machines, causing a large decrease of mileage, aprox. 80,000 if memory serves me.
Can you please dig up a citation for this?
I am going to start bowing out of technology discussions, because I cannot keep up with technology........
This is the best I came up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
It appears that most of the problem comes from inadequate distillation leading to too much water contamination. As was pointed out, this can be combatted by starting the vehicle with gasoline, and then switching. I will assume that the industries distillation and transport practices will limit the amount of contamination to a level that is combattable.
Technology....... How do you all keep up with it all......... |
The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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