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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 08/31/2006 : 18:40:14
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There are two reasons the Iraqi government can't get its act together so the US can pull out. One is corruption and giving all the jobs to foreign contractor cronies of Bush. That one's been discussed even if not often enough in my opinion.
But I realized today there is another reason after 3 years there is no Iraqi army and police "stepping up to the plate". This is a puppet government and it really doesn't have the support of the people.
It may be that the Shiite militias have an advantage in that they have a majority which got them some keys to the capital buildings, but essentially the people who were on the Iraqi ballots and had access to campaign funds and media would not have been there were they not supported by Bush et al.
I don't think many people are paying attention to the reasons the Iraq government has failed to really establish itself. Bush would have us believe the majority of the Iraq people are behind the government, voted for them, and accept the system we decided they would use. But large numbers of these people are looking to their own leaders and their own systems. It isn't just that a civil was is in progress, it's that a revolution is in progress. The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time. The voting was a meaningless exercise.
The other problem Bush is setting us up for is the constant declarations of a terrorist victory when we do leave. By all this rhetoric that if we do pull out the terrorists win, he is essentially reinforcing that idea.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 19:10:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time.
Makes you wonder where this popular revolt was in Saddam's days, doesn't it? Why wasn't his police force subject to random bombings and IEDs? Why was there no public resolve to wear down that dictatorial regime, but suddenly now fierce resistence to a democratically elected government, even if admittedly imperfect?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/31/2006 19:46:12 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2006 : 22:43:44 [Permalink]
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| I think that is like a corked bottle that was uncorked. Once you have complete control you terrorize people into being afraid to fight back. But take out the cork and you get a mess. And you can't easily cork it back up. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 04:57:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time.
Makes you wonder where this popular revolt was in Saddam's days, doesn't it? Why wasn't his police force subject to random bombings and IEDs? Why was there no public resolve to wear down that dictatorial regime, but suddenly now fierce resistence to a democratically elected government, even if admittedly imperfect?
LOL... ask the Kurds or anyone else that stood up to him.... Oh wait, you can't... He gassed and slaughtered them by the tens of thousands......
I said it once, and will probably say it a thousand times:
Right War, Wrong Time (should have happened a decade ago), Wrong Players (should have been the UN). If the UN wasn't so lame, they would have done something.
Peace
Joe
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The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 13:15:35 [Permalink]
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That's right, OT. But you can go back all the way to Woodrow Wilson to correct all the wrong wars and right wars, wrong time.
"Wilson's War, The fateful blunder that radically altered the course of the twentieth century—and led to some of the most murderous dictators in history". |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/01/2006 13:18:39 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 14:29:33 [Permalink]
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Here's a recent article on the Pentagon's current report to Congress regarding the general state of affairs in Iraq. The article includes some information somewhat related to this thread...quote Yahoo! News:
Pentagon Gives Gloomy Iraq Report
WASHINGTON - Sectarian violence is spreading in Iraq and the security problems have become more complex than at any time since the U.S. invasion in 2003, a Pentagon report said Friday [September 1, 2006].
In a notably gloomy report to Congress, the Pentagon reported that illegal militias have become more entrenched, especially in Baghdad neighborhoods where they are seen as providers of both security and basic social services.
[. . .]
In response to the Pentagon's report Friday, the Senate's top Democrat, Harry Reid of Nevada, said it showed the Bush administration is "increasingly disconnected from the facts on the ground in Iraq."
"It is time for a new direction to end the war in Iraq, win the war on terror, and give the American people the real security they deserve," Reid said.
Sen. Jack Reed (news, bio, voting record), D-R.I., who recently returned from a visit to Iraq, said the report squared with what he saw there.
"Iraq is tipping toward civil war," Reed said.
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 14:35:44 [Permalink]
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| Isn't "disconnect from the facts" the same as lying? If so, just say it! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2006 : 21:33:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Isn't "disconnect from the facts" the same as lying? If so, just say it!
It could also mean deluded. Since they get advice from imaginary friends (did't god tell George Dubya to invade Iraq), psychotic would be better. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Sago
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2006 : 15:23:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
There are two reasons the Iraqi government can't get its act together so the US can pull out. One is corruption and giving all the jobs to foreign contractor cronies of Bush. That one's been discussed even if not often enough in my opinion.
But I realized today there is another reason after 3 years there is no Iraqi army and police "stepping up to the plate". This is a puppet government and it really doesn't have the support of the people.
It may be that the Shiite militias have an advantage in that they have a majority which got them some keys to the capital buildings, but essentially the people who were on the Iraqi ballots and had access to campaign funds and media would not have been there were they not supported by Bush et al.
I don't think many people are paying attention to the reasons the Iraq government has failed to really establish itself. Bush would have us believe the majority of the Iraq people are behind the government, voted for them, and accept the system we decided they would use. But large numbers of these people are looking to their own leaders and their own systems. It isn't just that a civil was is in progress, it's that a revolution is in progress. The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time. The voting was a meaningless exercise.
The other problem Bush is setting us up for is the constant declarations of a terrorist victory when we do leave. By all this rhetoric that if we do pull out the terrorists win, he is essentially reinforcing that idea.
This commentary would be a lot more interesting if you would attempt to try to describe what the "opposition" offers in the form a future, policy, concept or something different from the puppet status quo that you think is the real problem.
Of course you don't because that is not your objective. Your objective is just to bitch and pretend that is a contribution.
It really doesn't matter what you think of Bush and his past decisions anymore (I think he's a horse's ass, and talks like one); what matters is what happens tomorrow and whether or not the Iraqis are even fundamentally capable of and approximation to a civil society or not.
I now have my doubts, but of course the same comment can be made of any bunch of people who say Insh'allah at the end of any promise they make, not to mention Allah U Akbar whenever they kill someone.
You just like to bitch about the past; and the present for that matter.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 00:38:07 [Permalink]
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Sago, you are soo wrong.
I can tell you what should have been done and if it isn't too late what can still be done and it is from learning as much as I could about the situation from before it started til now. But I'm going to sum it up and not give you pages of sources of info. Considering your silly post it would waste my time.
The US under the war profiteering Bush croney system gave million dollar contracts to everyone except the Iraqis. That left soaring unemployment and a country full of working foreigners. How do you think they would react?
We need to abandon the permanent military bases which are a clear sign of occupation to these people. The elected government would stand on its own were it really the people's choice but it isn't. Someone within the Iraqi community, scholars rather than corrupt politicians with ties to Bush cronies, should develop a system of government they believe will better serve the people there. Bush and company cannot give up their fantasy of having a friendly government like the Saudis and lots of oil to buy. We need to give that up and if we get something close in the end, great, but if not, it isn't our country. The money to rebuild the country needs to be going to Iraqi companies, not foreign companies.
Probably at this point, there needs to be at least a temporary division of the warring factions.
Anyway, that's the short version. |
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Cookie Parker
New Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 05:15:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time.
Makes you wonder where this popular revolt was in Saddam's days, doesn't it? Why wasn't his police force subject to random bombings and IEDs? Why was there no public resolve to wear down that dictatorial regime, but suddenly now fierce resistence to a democratically elected government, even if admittedly imperfect?
Ummmm because Saddam had a nation of tribes known to do what they do now under his control?
What democracy? Bush has placed a theorcratic government of one branch of Islam that is being protested. Bush got nothing close to a democracy set here...he couldn't afford to...how could he stay in Iraq if he put a democracy in place and he couldn't control it?
No, the Iraqis are protesting the favoritism Bush has bestowed on the Shiite tribes...he's been no better than Saddam....he's just been stupider... |
Blaise Pascal:
To deny, to believe, and to doubt absolutely -- this is for man what running is for a horse. |
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Cookie Parker
New Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 05:18:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
There are two reasons the Iraqi government can't get its act together so the US can pull out. One is corruption and giving all the jobs to foreign contractor cronies of Bush. That one's been discussed even if not often enough in my opinion.
But I realized today there is another reason after 3 years there is no Iraqi army and police "stepping up to the plate". This is a puppet government and it really doesn't have the support of the people.
It may be that the Shiite militias have an advantage in that they have a majority which got them some keys to the capital buildings, but essentially the people who were on the Iraqi ballots and had access to campaign funds and media would not have been there were they not supported by Bush et al.
I don't think many people are paying attention to the reasons the Iraq government has failed to really establish itself. Bush would have us believe the majority of the Iraq people are behind the government, voted for them, and accept the system we decided they would use. But large numbers of these people are looking to their own leaders and their own systems. It isn't just that a civil was is in progress, it's that a revolution is in progress. The Iraqis are revolting against the US installed government and fighting among themselves at the same time. The voting was a meaningless exercise.
The other problem Bush is setting us up for is the constant declarations of a terrorist victory when we do leave. By all this rhetoric that if we do pull out the terrorists win, he is essentially reinforcing that idea.
Sorry...I digress....this is indeed a puppet government and one which will remain puppet so that Bush and his cronies may continue to rape and pillage the country for their own benefit. And the slave labor from Sri Lanka and surrounding countries by Halliburton is creating even more problems for this nation....illegal immigrants....
Hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.....seems globalization is spreading to countries over which Bush invades without provocation....what a ruse and lie and what a pity so many blindly follow this crook known as Bush.
Not digression, but certainly way too emotional....<steps down from soapbox> |
Blaise Pascal:
To deny, to believe, and to doubt absolutely -- this is for man what running is for a horse. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2006 : 20:37:11 [Permalink]
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Hi Cookie Parker, new member!  I think you'll fit in here very nicely. |
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