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 Pope v. Islam
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  09:03:36  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
I haven't been keeping up with news much lately, but I guess the Pope said some stuff that pissed off some Muslims. CNN has story:

quote:
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- An al-Qaeda-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were 'doomed,' as protesters returned to the streets across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.

The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as 'the worshipper of the cross' saying 'you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword.'
I don't know if they see the irony here, or if it's just me...

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  10:24:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
From what I have observed, fundie, religious monomaniacs of all stripes never see irony. Nor much of anything else beyond their view of whatever text and/or legend(s) they condsider sacred. And they see those through a tunnel, for all of that. It takes some intellect to appreciate irony, and what there is of theirs is busy elsewhere.

Idiots.....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  10:39:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
This causes another problem for skeptics, they are gonna start thinking the Pope is psychic.

But seriously folks, these monos are really starting to get on my nerve, perhaps a stern talking to is needed.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  10:51:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
And it's Islam by a landslide.

That isn't violence at all. It's just simply making the right choice between Islam and getting brutally murdered. You don't see the difference? Obviously you can't if you don't follow the right religion.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  11:14:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

I haven't been keeping up with news much lately, but I guess the Pope said some stuff that pissed off some Muslims. CNN has story:

quote:
CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- An al-Qaeda-linked extremist group warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that he and the West were 'doomed,' as protesters returned to the streets across the Muslim world to demand more of an apology from the pontiff for his remarks about Islam and violence.

The Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups that includes al-Qaeda in Iraq, issued a statement on a Web forum vowing to continue its holy war against the West. The authenticity of the statement could not be independently verified.

The group said Muslims would be victorious and addressed the pope as 'the worshipper of the cross' saying 'you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. ... We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword.'
I don't know if they see the irony here, or if it's just me...



The sad part, is it wasn't "his" remarks. He was reading from a 600 year old text.

Peace
Joe
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chaloobi
SFN Regular

1620 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  11:18:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send chaloobi a Yahoo! Message Send chaloobi a Private Message
I for one would choose just about anything over getting brutally murdered. At least in the moment.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that the world would be a much better place if this revealed religion nonsense could be wiped away entirely. I don't believe for a second that human morality and integrity depends upon religous indoctrination. In fact, in a lot of ways, the opposite can be said...

-Chaloobi

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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  11:19:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Too bad the pope didn't cite examples of extremism from his own religion as well as other faiths...

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  11:27:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

And it's Islam by a landslide.


Good observation, Ricky. I should have said "Pope v. Muslims" and you'd see a closer fight...
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  12:00:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
And now this.

chaloobi is right.
quote:
I for one would choose just about anything over getting brutally murdered. At least in the moment.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that the world would be a much better place if this revealed religion nonsense could be wiped away entirely. I don't believe for a second that human morality and integrity depends upon religous indoctrination. In fact, in a lot of ways, the opposite can be said...

How much longer, in polite company, can we afford to give religion a pass due to the percieved good that it does when its potential for great harm is clear. I don't know what the individual can do, I can only imagine that it will take time for a critical mass of rational thinking to develope for any change to occur.

Religion is the root of all kinds of evil.

edited: misspelled chaloobi.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
Edited by - moakley on 09/18/2006 12:02:30
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dglas
Skeptic Friend

Canada
397 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  12:29:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send dglas a Private Message
Interesting. Now, if I may, "What is it about revealed religion that makes it potentially harmful?"

--------------------------------------------------
- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
--------------------------------------------------
The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
--------------------------------------------------
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  12:49:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by moakley

And now this.

chaloobi is right.
quote:
I for one would choose just about anything over getting brutally murdered. At least in the moment.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that the world would be a much better place if this revealed religion nonsense could be wiped away entirely. I don't believe for a second that human morality and integrity depends upon religous indoctrination. In fact, in a lot of ways, the opposite can be said...

How much longer, in polite company, can we afford to give religion a pass due to the percieved good that it does when its potential for great harm is clear. I don't know what the individual can do, I can only imagine that it will take time for a critical mass of rational thinking to develope for any change to occur.

Religion is the root of all kinds of evil.

edited: misspelled chaloobi.



People are the root of all evil. Religion is a tool that works both ways.

Peace
Joee
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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  13:11:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dglas

Interesting. Now, if I may, "What is it about revealed religion that makes it potentially harmful?"

What is the basis of any revealed religion?
How do we determine the validity of that revelation?
By what authority?
Has it ever coerced conversion through threat of violence?
Has it ever suppressed knowledge through threat of violence?
Has it ever misrepresented the facts either willfully or through ignorance?
Is it open to free flow of new ideas?
Is it willing to grow beyond their books?
Does it admit that these books may contain contradictions or errors?
How much of revealed religion is firmly based in the only reality we can be sure of?

I hope that through this series of questions I have answered yours.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  13:14:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
moakley wrote:
quote:
How much longer, in polite company, can we afford to give religion a pass due to the percieved good that it does when its potential for great harm is clear. I don't know what the individual can do, I can only imagine that it will take time for a critical mass of rational thinking to develope for any change to occur.

Religion is the root of all kinds of evil.


The Quaker religion inspired William Penn to found the first city in America where religious freedom and diversity was championed. It also inspired safer buildings and simple, more organized city-planning that even today has a positive influence on Philadelphia. I work at a Quaker school where the values of honesty, plain speak, integrity, simplicity, nonviolence, diversity (yes, including religious) and more are instilled in the students. I feel quite at home at this school even though I am an out-atheist.

I don't credit mystical beliefs with all the good done by Quakers, nor do I credit mystical beliefs with the values of Quakerism that I agree with. I credit people. And if I'm going to credit people (being the basic potential of human nature) with the good done in the name of religion, then I have to also credit people with the harm done in the name of religion.

That's the long way of agreeing with Joee:
quote:
People are the root of all evil. Religion is a tool that works both ways.


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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moakley
SFN Regular

USA
1884 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  13:18:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send moakley a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Original_Intent

quote:
Originally posted by moakley

And now this.

chaloobi is right.
quote:
I for one would choose just about anything over getting brutally murdered. At least in the moment.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think that the world would be a much better place if this revealed religion nonsense could be wiped away entirely. I don't believe for a second that human morality and integrity depends upon religous indoctrination. In fact, in a lot of ways, the opposite can be said...

How much longer, in polite company, can we afford to give religion a pass due to the percieved good that it does when its potential for great harm is clear. I don't know what the individual can do, I can only imagine that it will take time for a critical mass of rational thinking to develope for any change to occur.

Religion is the root of all kinds of evil.

edited: misspelled chaloobi.



People are the root of all evil. Religion is a tool that works both ways.

Peace
Joee

You are right. I should not have added that last sentence. It only served to distract from the point I was hoping to make.

Life is good

Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  13:20:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Catholics win Islam
Jesus stomps Mohamad Maybe if you add all the different spellings of Muhammad the results would differ.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  14:06:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox

moakley wrote:
quote:
How much longer, in polite company, can we afford to give religion a pass due to the percieved good that it does when its potential for great harm is clear. I don't know what the individual can do, I can only imagine that it will take time for a critical mass of rational thinking to develope for any change to occur.

Religion is the root of all kinds of evil.


The Quaker religion inspired William Penn to found the first city in America where religious freedom and diversity was championed. It also inspired safer buildings and simple, more organized city-planning that even today has a positive influence on Philadelphia. I work at a Quaker school where the values of honesty, plain speak, integrity, simplicity, nonviolence, diversity (yes, including religious) and more are instilled in the students. I feel quite at home at this school even though I am an out-atheist.

I don't credit mystical beliefs with all the good done by Quakers, nor do I credit mystical beliefs with the values of Quakerism that I agree with. I credit people. And if I'm going to credit people (being the basic potential of human nature) with the good done in the name of religion, then I have to also credit people with the harm done in the name of religion.

That's the long way of agreeing with Joee:
quote:
People are the root of all evil. Religion is a tool that works both ways.



There are dark, rarely-told secrets about the Quakers, too. It seems they were not really against slavery until about 1720, when a wheat-based economy developed in Pennsylvania, making slavery uneconomical. Until then, Quakers used black slaves there. Of William Penn himself:
quote:
William Penn was granted his colony in Pennsylvania in 1681, and added Delaware to it in 1682. Though he flooded the "Holy Experiment" with Quakers whose descendants would later find their faith incompatible with slaveholding, the original Quakers had no qualms about it. Penn himself owned slaves, and used them to work his estate, Pennsbury. He wrote that he preferred them to white indentured servants, "for then a man has them while they live."
Meanwhile, in England, Quakers were the most prominent of slave traders:
quote:
The slave trade was based at Bristol and Liverpool. Bristol was largely built on the commerce in slaves and sugar. In the 1730s, there were up to 50 sailings a year, taking cheap manufactured goods to West Africa to be bartered for slaves. As many as 17,000 slaves were transported annually to the West Indies, yielding an average profit of around £7000, a massive sum those days.

In Bristol, the church clergy themselves did not hesitate to “turn the Penny” from the slave trade. There were as many as 84 Quaker slave traders, among them Alexander and David Barclay - who later founded today's Barclays Bank. Rev Raymund Harris (commissioned by Liverpool Council to justify slavery) dutifully wro

Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 09/18/2006 14:09:55
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