Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Politics
 Pen, Paper, or Punch.
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  12:34:27  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
As long as it is not elctronic........

1 minute, software, 10 second ock pick, replicating viruses coming to an e-vote machine near you.


quote:
Felten and graduate students Ariel Feldman and Alex Halderman found that malicious programs could be placed on the Diebold by accessing the memory card slot and power button, both behind a locked door on the side of the machine. One member of the group was able to pick the lock in 10 seconds, and software could be installed in less than a minute, according to the report.

The researchers say they designed software capable of modifying all records, audit logs and counters kept by the voting machine, ensuring that a careful forensic examination would find nothing wrong.

The programs were able to modify vote totals or cause machines to break down, something that could alter the course of an election if machines were located in crucial polling stations.

It was also possible to design a computer virus to spread malicious programs to multiple machines by piggybacking on a new software download or an election information file being transferred from machine to machine, Felten said.



Peace
Joe

Edited to fix the [url]

Edited by - Original_Intent on 09/18/2006 12:37:51

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  13:48:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
One issue I wholeheartedly agree with you on.
Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  14:16:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Me, too. Thanks for posting this, OI!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  15:07:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Have read a little about this. Makes "hanging chads" look pretty good, huh?

The upcoming election is gonna a doozy.....




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  17:48:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
I hate electronic vote machines.

It is impossible to make them tamper proof.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  19:37:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Jesus H. Christ on a stick...

In Sweden, one of the most IT dense countries in the world, we still use voting ballot in an envelope. This way to ensure simplicity and reduce the possibility of tampering. At the voting station there are ballots for each party you can vote for, and only one ballot goes in the envelope. Practically no chance for mix-ups.
http://www.val.se/val/val2006/valsedlar/27R.html?parti=0524&submit=OK#kod-0524
This is how one ballot looks like. The names on it are the representatives nominated from that party. Depending on how many seats the party gets, they seats are assigned in the numbered order, unless one candidate is marked: that person is is counted as number one for that ballot.

Unless there is a special issue to vote on, there are three levels of government to vote for: local, regional, and national. Three enveolopes in three different boxes (three colours on the ballots (including a special marking for colourblind), one colour for each level, and a cutout in the envelope to make it easy to see which envelope goes in which box). One official recieves the envelopes, another checks you on the voting-list, and then the envelopes goes into the box.

It's a great system that has worked for decades, and there really are no good reasons to change it. It's like the old saying "If it ain't broken, don't fix it".

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2006 :  20:47:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

...It's like the old saying "If it ain't broken, don't fix it".


I think you're right Professor!
Hmmmm, one would think that if the goofs running Washington were actual "conservatives" they would want to "conserve" a trustworthy paper trail. But of course, they're not. They're radicals of the worst kind, transforming this country into a gradually less veiled rightwing dictatorship.
Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2006 :  13:18:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Dumb-asses loose smarcards.
Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2006 :  15:00:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
And it will keep coming. Email-voting
quote:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A New Jersey congressman raised questions Thursday about a new military voting program that lets service members request and submit their ballots by fax or e-mail.

Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2006 :  16:52:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
I love high tech in general.

Call me a nerd or a geek, and I'll thank you for it. But it just seems like a total no-brainer that paper, pen, and a slot to drop the ballot into, are the "appropriate technologies" for voting. Anything else, especially computer voting, is just asking for trouble.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2006 :  17:06:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I love high tech in general.

Call me a nerd or a geek, and I'll thank you for it. But it just seems like a total no-brainer that paper, pen, and a slot to drop the ballot into, are the "appropriate technologies" for voting. Anything else, especially computer voting, is just asking for trouble.





If I wanted to rig an election, a fake ballot box stuffed with pre-made paper & ink ballots could be pretty easily switched for the real thing. I could probably arrange this by having my people volunteer for the election board in the county I wanted to rig. This method and others have been used to rig elections since the dawn of democracy, I fail to see how it is any more secure than an electronic system.

The article shows how some grad students given unlimited access to a machine were able to find some ways to mess it up, then later in the article it's reported that it's an older machine that didn't have up to date security. I'm all for raising awareness on the issue, but I don't think it works as conclusive evidence that paper is better than electronic.
Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2006 :  21:26:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Properly done, there is a limited time-frame for curroption in a paper ballot system. With electronic voting cheating can come in to play:
During the making of components.
During the assembly of the machine.
During the storage of the machine pre-software installation.
During the programming of he software.
During the installation of the software.
Durng the storage post-software installation.
During the transportation and setup.
During the downloading or removal of the vote counting. 10,000 ballots are a bit bulky, a smartcard is not.
Anyime the computer is hooked to a network.

I am sure I forgot something.

Peace
Joe
Go to Top of Page

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2006 :  03:48:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
If you'd read a little more Mycroft you'd find a lot more evidence for voter fraud in Ohio.

Voter suppression in Democratic areas
Purging of registered voter roles in Democratic areas
The suspicious finding of a few hundred Bush votes at the end of a large number of vote tallys
The exit polls in Ohio showing Kerry winning

What evidence do you think one needs?
Go to Top of Page

Mycroft
Skeptic Friend

USA
427 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2006 :  07:02:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Mycroft a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
If you'd read a little more Mycroft you'd find a lot more evidence for voter fraud in Ohio.


First of all, I read a lot. Your continued attribution of disagreement to ignorance is very narrow-minded and demonstrates a fundamental unwillingness to challenge your assumptions. That's not very skeptical.

quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
What evidence do you think one needs?



For starters this thread here is about the supposed failings of electronic voting, so your points about voter suppression, purging of registered voters and suspiciously finding Bush votes at the end of vote tallys are all off-topic. They are, in fact, various ways to cheat in a paper-ballot election.





Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2006 :  08:41:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
I can't believe people listen to exit polls. If I ever take one, I will tell them the oppisite of what I voted.

Pen and paper isn't flawless. Ask the Kennedys and the mob. But it does make it harder to cheat.

Peace
Joe
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2006 :  15:29:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
For starters this thread here is about the supposed failings of electronic voting, so your points about voter suppression, purging of registered voters and suspiciously finding Bush votes at the end of vote tallys are all off-topic. They are, in fact, various ways to cheat in a paper-ballot election.

Maybe I've misunderstood something...
I remember reading reports that said that it was in some of the electronic voting districts there were uncharacteristically big differences between exit-polls and the election result. And in those instances always in Bush's favour. Had the deviations been split 50-50 in favour of each, then I wouldn't have paid that much attention to it. Something is definitely fishy.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.19 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000