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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  18:47:52  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
One thing I've noticed here is that many posters have chips implanted on their shoulders.

I don't mean this as condemnation, since that would be hypocrisy -- I've got a few chips on my own shoulders. But it seems to be true that many of us have long-standing "issues" that sometimes vividly color and often determine our responses, despite our otherwise good critical thinking abilities.

Though most of us here consider ourselves skeptics, as human beings few if any of us are immune from the random programming of a lifetime.

Without knowing in advance which posters are equipped with which chips, we are often find ourselves stumbling into baffling situations, where we simply cannot understand the reactions of another poster. In self-defense, we gradually build up a mental list of posters and their chips. Without such a guide, we are babes in the wood here.

A few samples from the many "chips" that I have personally noticed:
  • Personal attitudes stemming from our own negative experiences with former mates or family members, which color our reactions to unrelated issues.

  • The feeling of a need not to merely refute, but to strike out at organized religion (generally, or at a particular sect), due to negative personal experiences.

  • An absolutist attitude about politicians, where all are seen as corrupt.

  • The pure dislike of another poster, which colors our reading of whatever he or she has actually written.

Now, I'm not saying that any particular chips listed above are "bad" in themselves. (For instance, wanting to strike back at a religion which abused you seems to me a fairly reasonable response, as sort of human-managed form of karmic justice.) But they are chips on our shoulders, and do not add to our ability to do critical thinking.

I'd like to read what others might have to say about these "chips."


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  18:56:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I take that as a personal attack. Git yourself a lawyer man!@ %$#*@ This is war!!!

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  19:00:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

I take that as a personal attack. Git yourself a lawyer man!@ %$#*@ This is war!!!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
24898 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  20:44:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Seems to me that not a few of those chips have to do with cynicism.

Many times, the general public mistakes skepticism for cynicism, in that they think that doubt equates to curmudgeonly disbelief.

Skepticism isn't, of course, about simply dismissing things out-of-hand, but instead it's about examining propositions and coming to reasoned conclusions about them. The problem is that a lot of people seem to be under the impression that the arguments they make are being heard (here on these forums, for example) for the very first time, when in reality they've been discussed and examined and "debunked" and thought-through a zillion times in the decades since they were first introduced (happens a lot with creationists). Replying curtly to such arguments due to being bored with them (for example) can be seen as a prejudicial dismissal: cynicism.

So in at least one way, there's a balanacing act to be performed regarding some of these chips between spending a lot of what will usually be ultimately unproductive time patiently explaining that which has already been explained on the one hand, and looking like a "science bigot" (or a "liberal bigot" or some other sort of bigot) on the other (whether you are or not).

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  21:16:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
How are you distinguishing between 'a personal experience' and years of amassing information and experiences? We are all an accumulation of our experiences.

I haven't had any personal experiences about religion particularly, and if they aren't trying to change the world, I've always found religions fascinating to explore. These guys trying to take over the country are an exception.

I did have an eye-opening experience traveling in Central America that affected my political views, but it only added to my views that were already long established. My whole political position stems from years of accumulating "experiences".

Definitely the fact a needless war was started and people's loved ones are dying has turned the volume of my opinion posting up considerably. I haven't spent much time before Bush Jr overly pre-occupied with the government. I pay attention, but I'm not obsessed. I think this situation could get even worse if people don't speak up.

So maybe your comments weren't directed at me (along with others, I don't feel singled out), but I don't consider the current situation normal at all.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  22:42:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
Personal bias is an enemy of critical thinking.

Sometimes it is hard to see past it, but that is what your skeptic friends are for! To slap the shit out of you when you start to let a bais cloud your reason.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2006 :  23:31:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Or to help you fine tune your arguments!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  03:39:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
I wonder how much alcohol and drugs play a part. I was once threatened by a forum member on another forum. He later admistted to being drunk. The forum owner at first backed the other guy completely. The owner didn't participate in discussions, (to keep from being biased he said), so I had to push him to actually read the discussion. He backed off a little. He chided the other guy, but told me that I provoked him.

I did no such thing except ask questions about a non-personal topic that he didn't like. I didn't say, "your mother is stupid." I questioned one of his sacred cows. I didn't even make a statement, I asked a question. You're not supposed to question certain things. It happens here, and I wonder how much alcohol has to do with some of the messages I see here. Not just the ones I disagree with. But then, I'm sure that some people think that I drink as well. You couldn't have these ideas and be sober could you?

People think I've attacked religious people, when I haven't. People think I've attacked soldiers, when I haven't. You're just not supposed to question these sacred cows.

Seems to me that we are all angry people, looking for ways to confirm our anger. I should not have to say it, but I'll clarify that statement. I include myself, and no I do not drink more than about a glass or two a week. I don't deny my alcoholism, either.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 10/01/2006 05:37:37
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  06:42:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

One thing I've noticed here is that many posters have chips implanted on their shoulders.

I don't mean this as condemnation, since that would be hypocrisy -- I've got a few chips on my own shoulders. But it seems to be true that many of us have long-standing "issues" that sometimes vividly color and often determine our responses, despite our otherwise good critical thinking abilities.

Though most of us here consider ourselves skeptics, as human beings few if any of us are immune from the random programming of a lifetime.

Without knowing in advance which posters are equipped with which chips, we are often find ourselves stumbling into baffling situations, where we simply cannot understand the reactions of another poster. In self-defense, we gradually build up a mental list of posters and their chips. Without such a guide, we are babes in the wood here.

A few samples from the many "chips" that I have personally noticed:
  • Personal attitudes stemming from our own negative experiences with former mates or family members, which color our reactions to unrelated issues.

  • The feeling of a need not to merely refute, but to strike out at organized religion (generally, or at a particular sect), due to negative personal experiences.

  • An absolutist attitude about politicians, where all are seen as corrupt.

  • The pure dislike of another poster, which colors our reading of whatever he or she has actually written.

Now, I'm not saying that any particular chips listed above are "bad" in themselves. (For instance, wanting to strike back at a religion which abused you seems to me a fairly reasonable response, as sort of human-managed form of karmic justice.) But they are chips on our shoulders, and do not add to our ability to do critical thinking.

I'd like to read what others might have to say about these "chips."





AMEN! (myself at times included)
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  07:14:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder. Why bother? People would keep coming up and knocking it off....

I mean... I mean if you can't fathom my profound thoughts; can't sense the rythems behind my dulcet phrasing; the pure poetry woven into my every utterence, well, that's your problem, not mine, so shut up about it!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15821 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  11:26:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder. Why bother? People would keep coming up and knocking it off....

I mean... I mean if you can't fathom my profound thoughts; can't sense the rythems behind my dulcet phrasing; the pure poetry woven into my every utterence, well, that's your problem, not mine, so shut up about it!





Well, you let the cat out of the bag, filthy. Despite my care, now everyone knows who I was writing about.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2006 :  13:47:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder. Why bother? People would keep coming up and knocking it off....

I mean... I mean if you can't fathom my profound thoughts; can't sense the rythems behind my dulcet phrasing; the pure poetry woven into my every utterence, well, that's your problem, not mine, so shut up about it!





Well, you let the cat out of the bag, filthy. Despite my care, now everyone knows who I was writing about.








"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9447 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2006 :  11:00:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Personal attitudes stemming from our own negative experiences with former mates or family members, which color our reactions to unrelated issues.
The chips I used to have in this category are pretty much resolved.
quote:
The feeling of a need not to merely refute, but to strike out at organized religion (generally, or at a particular sect), due to negative personal experiences.
Here I freely admit I have a chip on my shoulder. It's a result of 10-15 years of religious indoctrination and the psychological after effects of it. And the hypocrisy of the churches (experience of multiple congregations) and its members.
The end result of much soul searching and analysis of my experiences is the conclusion that organised religion is bad for mankind, as it is mostly used for the wrong reasons. It fosters an Us-versus-Them mentality, and provides a great conduit for mass control, peer pressure, and group-think. Which is bad. It also foster an anti critical-thought mentality that I find terrifying.
quote:
An absolutist attitude about politicians, where all are seen as corrupt.
Hehe... I think I know whom you're thinking of. I just distrust right-leaning politicians, since socialist and communist ideology are farther from social darwinist on individual level than right-wing politics which I perceive as more egoistical.
quote:
The pure dislike of another poster, which colors our reading of whatever he or she has actually written.
I have first hand experience of judgemental attitudes (being subject of it) and I know how much I disliked it. Therefore, I always try my best to keep an open mind about others. If there is something I don't like about a posted, I try to identify the reason for my dislike and make sure it is only that particular aspect of the person I dislike, and not the person as a whole, and work from there.

For example, I dislike GK Paul's dancing-dodging around the questions he's been asked, but my analysis of the dodging aspect reveals that he's just uneducated and indoctrinated into the beliefs he has and it is thus not him I dislike, but I dislike the situation in which he is trapped. So instead of disliking him, I'm filled with a desire to change his mindset and release him from the prison of his mind that his religion is creating. That I'm not getting through to him is more my own lack of ability than anything I can blame on him.
quote:
I'd like to read what others might have to say about these "chips."
If you recognise a chip on my shoulder, please refer to this thread, and tell me what that chip is. I'm on an ongoing mission to improve myself, and since I can never truly be objective about myself, I have to rely on you to point out areas that need improvements.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2006 :  11:55:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
I'm on an ongoing mission to improve myself, and since I can never truly be objective about myself, I have to rely on you to point out areas that need improvements.



I think we all have chips, and I've made an attempt to apologize where my chips get in the way of civil discussion. I've noticed some people see that as a sign of weakness. They think that makes them right about everything else we've talked about.

I have lots of chips and try to deal with them on that basis and not blame anyone else for them.

I say 'try' because that's all we can ever do is try. Yoda was wrong about that one thing. That and he sounds like Cookie Monster.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3733 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2006 :  21:04:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Gorgo wrote:
quote:
Seems to me that we are all angry people, looking for ways to confirm our anger. I should not have to say it, but I'll clarify that statement. I include myself, and no I do not drink more than about a glass or two a week. I don't deny my alcoholism, either.
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding this statement, but one who consistently uses alcohol in safe moderation does not fit the definition of alcoholic. To imply that any use of alcohol is alcoholism dilutes the impact and meaning of the word "alcoholism". In the same way, while all people have some amount of anger inside them at all times, not everyone is an angry person. To characterize all people as "angry people" is to leave us without a way to characterize people who regularly abuse themselves or others because of an unusual amount of irrational anger.


"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 10/02/2006 21:04:55
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5309 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  02:27:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
You're forgiven. My post was about excessive use, and the last sentence you quote was a joke about denial. Just because you're in denial doesn't mean you're an alcoholic.

And we have no anger "inside us." If that leaves you with no lines to draw about what anyone calls abusive people, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to destroy the entire science of psychology

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Edited by - Gorgo on 10/03/2006 02:40:12
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