Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Creation/Evolution
 War on evolution has a price
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  09:10:58  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Link

quote:
I recently ad-dressed a group of French engineering graduate students who were visiting Washington from the prestigious School of Mines in Paris. After encouraging them to teach biotechnology in French high schools, I expected the standard queries on teaching methods or training. Instead, a bright young student asked bluntly: "How can you teach biotechnology in this country when you don't even accept evolution?"

...

The opposition to evolution discourages the development of entire high-school classes of future scientific talent. "It seems like a raw deal for the 14-year-old girl in Topeka who might have gone on to find a cure for resistant infections if only she had been taught evolution in high school," H. Holden Thorp, chairman of the chemistry department at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, wrote in the New York Times last spring.

Multiply that girl's plight thousands of times in school districts in Georgia, Kansas, Ohio and other states that are discouraging the teaching of evolution.



by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.

Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  11:11:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
Sad. They already know we're uncultured, but at least, once upon a time, we had a fairly good scientific and engineering reputation. I fear this is slipping away. People came here to study, so we could live with being artistic dummies, and go to France for art.

Slight modification (added the U.S. state) on a freely translated old French joke about Americans:

Two American students (from Ohio) are walking in Le Louvre absorbing culture when they notice one of Houdon's busts of Voltaire. One turns to the other and says:

American 1: Hey look, it's Rachmaninov.
American 2: Yeah. Dat dat dat daaaaa.*

*(Theme from Beethoven's 5th Symphony.)

Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.

"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.)
Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  11:47:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Sad, sad, sad.....

Even sadder that you are assuming that the 14 year old could pay for collegge, and get a job once out of college that had some hope of paying off her loans in 10 years......

Tuition at Chapel Hill... Am I reading that right. If She leaves Topeka next year to start..... $ 17,800 a year, for undergraduate, then $33,000 a year for the School of Medicine?

This discourages the develpoment of many many more.....

Peace
Joe
Go to Top of Page

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  14:20:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
quote:
This discourages the develpoment of many many more.....


Also true.

I understand your point. College, and post-grad, is quite expensive in the US. I started saving for my daughter's college before she could walk and talk. I hope that it will be enough when the time comes.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  15:48:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
State Universities are must less expensive for tuition.

In FL tuition at state universities is arounf $100/hour, so you could take 16 credits (undergrad) for $1600.

Graduate courses are around $200-300/hour, also significantly less than the private schools.

If you have a good GPA (3.8+) and a couple of HS teachers capable of writing an articulate letter for you, you can get some good scholarships.

If your parents don't make alot of money, or you are over 24, you can probably get a PELL grant.

If there wasn't a near 100% chance that you'd get sent to Iraq, you could always sign up for a 4 year stint in the Army, get a nice stack of cash for school when you get out.

Private schools aren't the only option available to people.

I absolutely agree that we must be careful to not let the availability of education get out of the reach of most people though. It would be a disaster.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Edited by - Dude on 10/03/2006 15:49:47
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  15:57:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
1 in 5 American adults thinks the sun goes around the earth. There is no doubt that we are the most scientifically-illiterate industrialized nation on the planet.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Go to Top of Page

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  19:31:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

State Universities are must less expensive for tuition.

In FL tuition at state universities is arounf $100/hour, so you could take 16 credits (undergrad) for $1600.

Graduate courses are around $200-300/hour, also significantly less than the private schools.

If you have a good GPA (3.8+) and a couple of HS teachers capable of writing an articulate letter for you, you can get some good scholarships.

If your parents don't make alot of money, or you are over 24, you can probably get a PELL grant.

If there wasn't a near 100% chance that you'd get sent to Iraq, you could always sign up for a 4 year stint in the Army, get a nice stack of cash for school when you get out.

Private schools aren't the only option available to people.

I absolutely agree that we must be careful to not let the availability of education get out of the reach of most people though. It would be a disaster.





I used Chapel Hill because of the comment. State schools aren't for everyone.... Heck, trade schools can be good.

But, as with everything, the resources get squandered in the wrong areas...... ("beatutification", sports stadiums, not requiring more out of sabaticals....)

Peace
Joe
Go to Top of Page

verlch
SFN Regular

781 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  21:06:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send verlch an AOL message Send verlch a Private Message
More scare tactics, I got an idea, how about we let people believe what they want to believe!!

What came first the chicken or the egg?

How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?

There are no atheists in foxholes

Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4

II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!

Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?

Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.

We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.

"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  21:16:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by verlch

More scare tactics, I got an idea, how about we let people believe what they want to believe!!

We do, but we like to give them the facts first. It's important that people make an informed choice.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Go to Top of Page

pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2996 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  21:42:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message
Unfortunately, when people believe in magic, you get a bunch of complete bullshit like in someone's signature in this very thread. But, you have to take the good with the bad...definitely why the facts are needed to combat some argument from emotion with nothing other than the TRUE scare tactic of the fictional lake of eternal hell fire.

by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 10/03/2006 21:42:53
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  22:07:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
Speaking of signatures....

Verlch, would you please consider shortening your signature?
One third of what you have now should suffice.

Pretty please, with sugar on top?

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  22:43:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
v-man said:
quote:
More scare tactics, I got an idea, how about we let people believe what they want to believe!!


When was the last time anyone told you that you couldn't believe whatever you wanted to believe verlch?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
Go to Top of Page

Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  22:59:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert

1 in 5 American adults thinks the sun goes around the earth. There is no doubt that we are the most scientifically-illiterate industrialized nation on the planet.



Do you have a source for this? I have a hard time believing it is that bad, but it does correlate with statistics on evolution. I wonder what the statistics are for other countries?

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
Go to Top of Page

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  23:23:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dude

When was the last time anyone told you that you couldn't believe whatever you wanted to believe verlch?
My guess would be the last time he was in church.

"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones
Go to Top of Page

H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  23:28:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost_Skeptic
Do you have a source for this? I have a hard time believing it is that bad, but it does correlate with statistics on evolution. I wonder what the statistics are for other countries?

Sure.
quote:
Miller's data reveal some yawning gaps in basic knowledge. American adults in general do not understand what molecules are (other than that they are really small). Fewer than a third can identify DNA as a key to heredity. Only about 10 percent know what radiation is. One adult American in five thinks the sun revolves around the Earth, an idea science had abandoned by the 17th century.
1 in 5. That's 20% of the voting population.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Go to Top of Page

Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular

Canada
510 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2006 :  23:52:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ghost_Skeptic a Private Message
Yikes

I probably don't want to know what the statistics are for Canadians.


"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King

History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms

"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler

"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.56 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000