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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 10/25/2006 : 07:43:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I have a plan. I want to start getting it out there where maybe someone with influence will see it.
Here's the deal. The reason we are staying is because Bush wants a US friendly gov and oil companies. If we give that up we can go with honor. How? We let the Iraqi people vote whether they want us to stay or not. They vote we go. We do the bidding of the Iraqi people and it isn't a defeat or an abandonment. Should they vote we stay, (unlikely but who knows) that would be a statement against the insurgency. It would say the majority want us there and the insurgency was a minority.
It's a win win.
Bush doesn't want to ask the Iraqi people what do they want. Bush wants his puppet government and doesn't want it known what the Iraqi people want.
Hey, BSG, this opinion was expressed today by a friend of mine in the Baltimore Sun! |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 09:38:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I have a plan. I want to start getting it out there where maybe someone with influence will see it.
Here's the deal. The reason we are staying is because Bush wants a US friendly gov and oil companies. If we give that up we can go with honor. How? We let the Iraqi people vote whether they want us to stay or not. They vote we go. We do the bidding of the Iraqi people and it isn't a defeat or an abandonment. Should they vote we stay, (unlikely but who knows) that would be a statement against the insurgency. It would say the majority want us there and the insurgency was a minority.
It's a win win.
Bush doesn't want to ask the Iraqi people what do they want. Bush wants his puppet government and doesn't want it known what the Iraqi people want.
The more I think about this plan, the more I don't like it. And this is why: Even if the majority DID vote to have the US stay, the insurgency is STILL going to be fighting the Occupation. And we're STILL going to be grinding our military to dust, sacrificing good men and women for nothing, dumping hundreds of billions of borrowed money down the toilet, fomenting terrorism around the world, etc etc. I never wanted our military IN Iraq and I frankly don't give a shit what the Iraqi people think about the Occupation. |
-Chaloobi
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 12:18:57 [Permalink]
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I don't claim my speculations are written in stone, but I suspect, based on their many crazy past actions, the Bush regime is actually (in the back room) trying to create a pullout plan that is structured as follows:
Strengthen their political position. (That's always first and foremost with them. Safety of soldiers and the American people are not their top considerations.)
Blame the Democrats for whatever happens:
They're emphasizing Iraqi self-reliance in dealing with the horrors brought on by the US invasion while dropping and denying the simple minded "Stay the Course" rhetoric because it is close to a US election – yet – retaining some "Commitment-to-Iraq" rhetoric for their base of conservative supporters, which includes the corporations involved in Iraq.
Meanwhile billions (yes, Billions) of dollars have been lost and squandered in Iraq by both Washington and the weak, new Iraqi regime.
The point is: The Republican core has no intention of "winning" a war in Iraq and establishing their comic-book style "freedom." That rhetoric is politics for their base.
They perhaps are anticipating two scenarios.
If Iraq remains disintegrated and violent:
Pulling out under the guise of pursuing the "war on terror" elsewhere (Afghanistan?, Iran? Syria?) and/or blaming Iran, the Iraqi people, and the Democrats at home for the continued insurgency and violence.
If Iraq is able to eventually subdue violence after a US pullout:
Taking credit for introducing "freedom" and "democracy" to Iraq. And/or blaming the Democrats in some way for any and all negative history associated with the unnecessary incursion from what should have been a military police action against specific terrorist cells in Afghanistan and Northern Pakistan.
If Iraq becomes a theocracy, the Republicans will still emphasize their positive spin and try to blame the Democrats for any oppression that results. As long as they can get the oil. They are completely self-absorbed with their political power without consideration for service to citizens or higher principles. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 12:51:31 [Permalink]
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Just give up on life and join me in my new religion, Hermitology. Learn the joys of never again talking to any moron, jackass or idiot. Anything which kills braincells is welcome to Hermitists, as ignorance is bliss.
"Extended warranty! How can I lose?!?"
Edit: Braincell loss has contributed to my spelling and grammar woes. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 10/25/2006 12:52:48 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 14:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
..."Extended warranty! How can I lose?!?"
I don't see how you could, unless your religion excludes pizza, dim sum, barbecues or any other ethnic foods, and live music. 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 12:17:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Just give up on life and join me in my new religion, Hermitology. Learn the joys of never again talking to any moron, jackass or idiot. Anything which kills braincells is welcome to Hermitists, as ignorance is bliss.
"Extended warranty! How can I lose?!?"
Edit: Braincell loss has contributed to my spelling and grammar woes.
Okayyyy. . . . . do yo need help finding your mind? |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 12:22:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
I don't claim my speculations are written in stone, but I suspect, based on their many crazy past actions, the Bush regime is actually (in the back room) trying to create a pullout plan that is structured as follows:
<snip>
They are completely self-absorbed with their political power without consideration for service to citizens or higher principles.
You may not have the specifics exactly right, but certainly the overall plan. I'm sure old Karl Rove is already working out ways the expected electoral defeat can be used to clean up GW's hideous legacy in Iraq. Somewhere around 2008, regardless of the scenario that actually plays out, if it's negative, the story will be something like: "We were staying the course on our way to victory in this tough fight when the Democrats tricked American into giving them control of congress and they cut and run. Hence the regional civil war that's shut down the mid-east oil supply and killed millions of people etc etc...." There is absolutely no question in my mind that nobody in the Bush Administration will EVER accept responsibility for this mess. They don't do that with anything. |
-Chaloobi
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 19:00:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
...You may not have the specifics exactly right, but certainly the overall plan...
Thank you for a rational response and comments. I'm also wondering what unseen developments will muck up their schemes. (i.e. The current shakey Iraq government, such as it is, turning down Bush's implied timetable request.) But they'll still, as you pointed out, blame somebody. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 06:27:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
...You may not have the specifics exactly right, but certainly the overall plan...
Thank you for a rational response and comments. I'm also wondering what unseen developments will muck up their schemes. (i.e. The current shakey Iraq government, such as it is, turning down Bush's implied timetable request.) But they'll still, as you pointed out, blame somebody.
They'll accuse the Democrats of being obstructionist, causing gridlock and so on and that's why the Iraq nation-building project failed... It will probably give a boost to the Republican Presidential candidate in 2008. The variable is how short the US electorate's memory is. |
-Chaloobi
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2006 : 22:24:20 [Permalink]
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I think you are about right, Chip. But it's a toss up between looking for that exit and Bush in denial still holding out hope he can turn the thing around.
Chaloobi, while I haven't checked the direct source, a number of people are citing evidence 80-90% of the Iraqi people want the US to set a time table and leave. It would seem those most wanting us to stay are the government officials who it would seem, don't have the popular support claimed by the election process.
My observation is, if the current Iraq government truly represents the majority's choice, then the insurgency shouldn't be as successful as they apparently are. This government might have had the majority votes, and Bush might be claiming it was a free and fair election, but the actions on the ground tell a different story.
Which leaves two possibilities (might be more but these are the two I see). Either the current Iraqi government is nothing more than a US puppet government, or they hold the majority but only barely and it is in the Shiites best interest to let the US military hold down the fort for them, while the Shiite death squads go out at night and satisfy their need for revenge. Why should the Shiite government fight the Sunnis in a civil war when the Americans are doing it for them?
My idea is to leave just as you say. I think the Iraqi referendum for us to go gives legitimacy to leaving what we broke and is one way, if handled correctly, to not give the terrorist groups the recruitment tool of claiming the Americans give in when they inflict enough casualties.
To Bush, leaving is an obvious failure. To the rest of us it's his failure, not ours. We will suffer for it, but we aren't the "deciders" who started the stupid mess.
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 07:23:10 [Permalink]
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| Ok, I get it. It looks less like we got chased out if we give the people a voice to say "yes, we'd like you to leave." But what if they say they want us to stay??? Worst case scenario, the Iraqi government (or OURS, yeah, GW's government would do that) rigs the vote to want us to stay... |
-Chaloobi
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