Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Our Skeptic Forums
 Politics
 Swearing on the Quran
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  10:54:18  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
Keith Ellison, a Muslim elected to Congress, has requested to be sworn in using the quran rather than the bible. Of course the wingnuts like Dennis Prager are up in arms (in addition to being, as usual, uninformed:

quote:

He should not be allowed to do so -- not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American civilization.

First, it is an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism -- my culture trumps America's culture. What Ellison and his Muslim and leftist supporters are saying is that it is of no consequence what America holds as its holiest book; all that matters is what any individual holds to be his holiest book.




Shit, there goes another irony meter blown to hell.


quote:
Forgive me, but America should not give a hoot what Keith Ellison's favorite book is. Insofar as a member of Congress taking an oath to serve America and uphold its values is concerned, America is interested in only one book, the Bible. If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress.


WTF???

He goes on and on, piling nonsense on top of bullshit.

Of course the American Family Association had to pipe up. Don "Wildman" Wildmon is not content just to agree with Prager's rant, he wants to make the holey babble the only thing you can swear on:

quote:
Take Action
1. Send an email asking your U.S. Representative and Senators to pass a law making the Bible the book used in the swearing-in ceremony of Representatives and Senators.




And of course, he wouldn't be a fine upstanding defender to Traditional American Values(tm) if he didn't have his hand out:

quote:
If you think our efforts are worthy, would you please support us with a small gift?


What a disgusting pus filled boil on the butt of humanity this guy is.

I suggest we take action:

Send an email asking your U.S. Representative and Senators to pass a law making it illegal to use any book whatsoever or to use the phrase "so help me god" or any equivalent theistic utterance during the swearing in ceremony of any public official.


The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion

Edited by - R.Wreck on 12/02/2006 11:11:54

Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  12:27:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
LOL.

I admit that I don't watch swearing ins.... They still use Bibles?

So, they want this congressman not only to swear in on his word, but to swear in on an oath holding a bible that means nothing to him?

I can see the news now:

Reporter: But you swore an oath on the bible!
Congressman: Yes
R: Dosen't that mean anything to you?
C: No.... I don't believe in the Bible. I believe in the Koran.
R: So you are saying that if you would have sworn on the Koran, it would have meant something?
C: Yes
R: Why didn't you?
C: I wasn't permitted.
R: Why not?
C: Because they say the Bible is the only thing permitted.
R: What about "Free exerise therof?
C: What country are you living in?

That on is almost as good as this would be.

Reporter: But you swore an oath on the bible!
Congressman: Yes
R: Dosen't that mean anything to you?
C: Yes. It means the world to me.
R: Isn't there something in the Bible about "taking the lords name in vain?
C: I use the ACN (Americas a Christian Nation), translated by Revrend Fallwell, 32nd edition.....

If they feel they must use a bible, or a koran, or even the Maharabatha... let them. If they want to swear to god, Jesus, allah, the Brhama, the four winds, whatever.... fine.
But you cannot tel them they must use the bible.

Peace
Joe
Go to Top of Page

tw101356
Skeptic Friend

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  13:49:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tw101356 a Private Message
Actually, the swearing-in is done with the right hand raised. Anyone who has a bible or quran or whatever brought it themselves. You could hold a copy of Moby Dick if you wanted to.

- TW
Go to Top of Page

Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  14:00:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
tw101356,

I have seen more official "swearing in" ceremonies than I can count (several each year for the last 10 years), so I must reply here:
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356

Actually, the swearing-in is done with the right hand raised.
This is true. The left hand is placed on the bible, with the right hand raised.
quote:
Anyone who has a bible or quran or whatever brought it themselves. You could hold a copy of Moby Dick if you wanted to.
Where in the world did you get this idea from? There is an official bible kept by the administrators used for swearing in. Often, the swearee is asked to sign and date that bible. I have never seen somebody supply their own bible.
Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  14:20:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
I think this is another sign of how secularism is winning the culture war - when the fundamentalists get so desperate that they try to make impractical laws that are ethically repugnant to the mainstream majority of Americans and that would obviously be killed by the higher courts - I mean, wow.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  14:21:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
Really, what do these people think "freedom of religion" means?

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Go to Top of Page

Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  14:37:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
quote:
Send an email asking your U.S. Representative and Senators to pass a law making it illegal to use any book whatsoever or to use the phrase "so help me god" or any equivalent theistic utterance during the swearing in ceremony of any public official.


Or better yet, make it illegal to be a politician.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



Go to Top of Page

tw101356
Skeptic Friend

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  15:30:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send tw101356 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10

tw101356,

I have seen more official "swearing in" ceremonies than I can count (several each year for the last 10 years), so I must reply here:
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356

Actually, the swearing-in is done with the right hand raised.
This is true. The left hand is placed on the bible, with the right hand raised.
quote:
Anyone who has a bible or quran or whatever brought it themselves. You could hold a copy of Moby Dick if you wanted to.
Where in the world did you get this idea from? There is an official bible kept by the administrators used for swearing in. Often, the swearee is asked to sign and date that bible. I have never seen somebody supply their own bible.



From:

DailyKos diary

Minnesota Monitor

The latter says, "According to Roll Call, the Capitol Hills' newspaper, swearing on a particular sacred text is a symbolic, optional affair for House members who would like a photo-op with the Speaker of the House at the end of the mass swearing-in ceremony, which has no specific religious denomination."

And various other places.

Having never seen a swearing-in ceremony, I had to go by what I read, which implied that the book was an optional part.

- TW
Go to Top of Page

Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular

USA
529 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  17:53:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Orwellingly Yurz a Private Message

YO: TW Ten-Thirteen-Fifty-Six!


quote:
Originally posted by tw101356

Actually, the swearing-in is done with the right hand raised. Anyone who has a bible or quran or whatever brought it themselves. You could hold a copy of Moby Dick if you wanted to.



Herman Melville thanks you, TW.

I tell you, these idiots who are missing the point about what freedom of religion actually is, need to go off somewhere else on earth and start-up their own theocracy. The U.S. isn't one of those. And god help us ALL, if these bastards ever turn it into one.

OY!

"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith

If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan

The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me

"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty

"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde

"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus

"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus

"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde
Go to Top of Page

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2006 :  23:33:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Boron10

tw101356,

I have seen more official "swearing in" ceremonies than I can count (several each year for the last 10 years), so I must reply here:
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356

Actually, the swearing-in is done with the right hand raised.
This is true. The left hand is placed on the bible, with the right hand raised.
quote:
Anyone who has a bible or quran or whatever brought it themselves. You could hold a copy of Moby Dick if you wanted to.
Where in the world did you get this idea from? There is an official bible kept by the administrators used for swearing in. Often, the swearee is asked to sign and date that bible. I have never seen somebody supply their own bible.

You may have seen the ceremonies, but tw is correct there is no law requiring the Bible be used.

http://www.rules.house.gov/archives/RL30725.pdf


quote:
I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
This oath is mandated by Article VI of the Constitution, and its text is set by statute (5 U.S.C. 3331).



Article VI of the Constitution doesn't refer to any Bible or the, "so help me God" statement.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

quote:
Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."



The code does however have the phrase

http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/documents/usc/ttl5/ptIII/subptB/ch33/subchII/sec3331.html

quote:
United State Code
TITLE 5 - GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATION AND EMPLOYEES
PART III - EMPLOYEES
Subpart B - Employment and Retention
CHAPTER 33 - EXAMINATION, SELECTION, AND PLACEMENT
SUBCHAPTER II - OATH OF OFFICE

Sec. 3331. Oath of office

An individual, except the President, elected or appointed to an office of honor or profit in the civil service or uniformed services, shall take the following oath: ''I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.'' This section does not affect other oaths required by law.

All but the quoted language in R.S. Sec. 1757 is omitted as obsolete since R.S. Sec. 1757 was originally an alternative oath to the oath prescribed in R.S. Sec. 1756 which oath was repealed by the Act of May 13, 1884, ch. 46, Sec. 2, 23 Stat. 22. The words ''An individual, except the President, . . . in the civil service or uniformed services'' are substituted for ''any person . . . either in the civil, military, or naval service, except the President of the United States''. The second sentence of former section 16 is changed to read, ''This section does not affect other oaths required by law.''. Standard changes are made to conform with the definitions applicable and the style of this title as outlined in the preface to the report.




Go to Top of Page

filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  00:52:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I'm, delighted just to see a Muslim get elected. Who knows, someday an atheist might get get in office. Then the fascist knuckle-draggers like Prager could self-implode from the vacume caused by trying to get their demagoguery out too fast & loud -- and up yours, G.H.W. Bush!.

If ever I should get elected (Whatever Powers That Might Be forbid!), I'd like to take the oath, or the photo op thereof, on Joe Heller's Catch 22. One work of fiction is as good as another and that one is better than most. The symbolism would be sweet as penny candy.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  01:30:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message
Ah, Catch-22, the book that kept me sane in the Navy during Vietnam! I'd put my hand on that one, Fil.

These people who have this incredibly distorted take on the "Christian" intentions of the Founding Fathers are just outright liars. The overwhelming evidence is that the Founders were much more aware in their era of how dangerous sectarian strife can be, than most of us now are. That's why they worked so hard to keep the establishment of religion out of government.

The Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists are not conservatives, harking back to the intentions of the Founding Fathers. They are bigoted, theocratic reactionaries, with a radical, "un-American," agenda.

The founders of the US would be horrified by their lies, and by their intention of making government a purely "Christian" operation. The authors of the Constitution felt so strongly about the separation of Church and State that they put it into the very First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." And these authors weren't all what modern Fundies would call Christians, either.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Go to Top of Page

ktesibios
SFN Regular

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  13:02:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send ktesibios a Private Message
Koran, Bible, Torah... what a depressing example of how little imagination our congresscritters have.

If you've absolutely got to use a religious book of some sort for a photo-op that has exactly as much official meaning as a picture of the congressperson sitting on Santa's lap at the local mall...

Whassamatta the Kama Sutra?

"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers
Go to Top of Page

Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1264 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2006 :  17:37:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal

You may have seen the ceremonies, but tw is correct there is no law requiring the Bible be used.

I had no intention of implying what the law stated. I was merely stating the way these ceremonies are run.

Edited to remove a sentence that was unintentionally snide
Edited by - Boron10 on 12/03/2006 22:47:30
Go to Top of Page

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2006 :  01:19:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo

Or better yet, make it illegal to be a politician.

So whenever you make a political statement, we could report you?
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.55 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000