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 Human hair before razor and shears appeared.
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Pachomius
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62 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  01:03:59  Show Profile Send Pachomius a Private Message
Do you keep pet dogs or cats at home? Notice that their hair is pretty well trimmed to a fixed short length by nature?

And do you know that -- I could be mistaken though -- if there were no humans to shear the hair of the sheep, their hair would grow indefinitely long, that they would be hard up trying to move about without tripping on their hair or wool.

Here is something for you to think about if you observe it: the goat sports a beard -- or I am mistaken? But its beard is also of fixed length; not however with human beard and facial hair, they can grow to indefinite length unless you pull them off or cut or shave them off.

Okay, now I ask you to think really hard: how did man get rid of overly long hair on his head and face prior to the invention of the razor or the shears, therefore before the discovery and use of metals?

Perhaps man would look for very hard stones and grind them on each other to get a very sharp edge, keen enough to do some very crude shaving of facial hair and cutting of scalp hair?

What do you say, guys?

About the sheep before man discovered the use of its hair for weaving cloths, I will leave that to your imagination how sheep manage with their overly long and continuously growing(?) hair, erh wool, before man found the great use for it.


Such are the things that keep me entertained, just like Buddhism and how or why its doctrines or meditation practices could really be of use to Westerners for attaining or effecting psychotherapy, when this practice is already an established scientific medical skill in the West.

So also I am always studying the habits of cockroaches, that very hardy species that has antedated mankind by millions of years and will still be around when mankind is no more after the nuclear holocaust self-inflicted; so why shouldn't I be curious also about Buddhism and Buddhists? We all took up anatomy of the cat in school didn't we, or at least the frog?


Enjoy.


Pachomius

Starman
SFN Regular

Sweden
1613 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  01:21:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Starman a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

And do you know that -- I could be mistaken though -- if there were no humans to shear the hair of the sheep, their hair would grow indefinitely long, that they would be hard up trying to move about without tripping on their hair or wool.

Here is something for you to think about if you observe it: the goat sports a beard -- or I am mistaken? But its beard is also of fixed length; not however with human beard and facial hair, they can grow to indefinite length unless you pull them off or cut or shave them off.

Okay, now I ask you to think really hard: how did man get rid of overly long hair on his head and face prior to the invention of the razor or the shears, therefore before the discovery and use of metals?

Perhaps man would look for very hard stones and grind them on each other to get a very sharp edge, keen enough to do some very crude shaving of facial hair and cutting of scalp hair?

Well, you are mistaken so I'll guess that is that....
quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair

Individual hairs alternate periods of growth and dormancy. During the growth portion of the cycle, hair follicles are long and bulbous, and the hair advances outward at about a third of a millimeter per day. After three to six months, body hair growth stops (the pubic and armpit areas having the longest growth period). The follicle shrinks and the root of the hair grows rigid. Following a period of dormancy, another growth cycle starts, and eventually a new hair pushes the old one out of the follicle from beneath.
If you have any source for the claim that any sheep hair, grows indefinitely please present it.
You do realise that not all sheep species are domestic?
Edited by - Starman on 12/08/2006 01:58:01
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  03:08:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
My beard, which grows to half way down my chest, hasn't been trimmed since I threw my razor away some three decades or so ago. It gets no longer.

And who is to say that longer peltage isn't a relatively recent, evolutionary development? It is perfectly within reason to consider that our ancient ancestors had hair that grew just so long, a few inches perhaps, and stopped.

As for sheep, simple answer: Domestic sheep have been bred for meat and wool for longer than recorded history. We made them what they are. But even then, their wool won't grow beyond a certain point -- I don't know what that point is, however, and it probably varies with the breed. In their natural relatives, this is not a problem. Their coats wax and wane like the tides as the seasons pass, as with most mammals. Except armadillos. And pangolins. And naked mole rats. And -- never mind; you get the picture.

Edit: Flint and obsidian, et al, can be knapped to an edge comparable to to a razor, and was. This shows up in ancient tool kits. Also, many aborigional peoples, such as American Indians, plucked their beards -- Ouch!!




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Edited by - filthy on 12/08/2006 03:20:42
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tomk80
SFN Regular

Netherlands
1278 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  04:03:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit tomk80's Homepage Send tomk80 a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius
And do you know that -- I could be mistaken though -- if there were no humans to shear the hair of the sheep, their hair would grow indefinitely long, that they would be hard up trying to move about without tripping on their hair or wool.


Domesticated sheep are descended from 2 variants of wild sheep, the Urial (Southern Asia) and the Mouflon (Southern Europe) (http://www.oaklandzoo.org/atoz/azsheep.html).

Mouflon:


Urial:


As you can see from the pictures, both have a reasonably short, course fur instead of the soft, long wool of their domestic descendants. The wool is a result of domestic breeding and even in domestic sheep this wool does not grow indefinitely.

All animals, and humans are no exception, constantly loose hair. It just falls out. This constant shedding of hair, either by the deactivation of it's growth or by day to day 'wear and tear) keep hairs a certain length.

Tom

`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  07:53:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

Do you keep pet dogs or cats at home? Notice that their hair is pretty well trimmed to a fixed short length by nature?
You've never met my dog.

And my cats shed constantly.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  10:43:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

...the goat sports a beard -- or I am mistaken? But its beard is also of fixed length; not however with human beard and facial hair, they can grow to indefinite length unless you pull them off or cut or shave them off...


No so. Otherwise we'd all look like this.
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Neurosis
SFN Regular

USA
675 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  10:58:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Neurosis an AOL message Send Neurosis a Private Message
The rate of hair growth in all animals is seasonal and goes about in stages. One hair falls out as another follicle is activated and so on and so forth. Also, the is a limit to the length of hair in different parts of the body and that is genetic to each individual and of course species. Take the human arm hair for example. Do you shave your arms Pachomius?

Here is a good source for more info.

Facts! Pssh, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts.
- Homer Simpson

[God] is an infinite nothing from nowhere with less power over our universe than the secretary of agriculture.
- Prof. Frink

Lisa: Yes, but wouldn't you rather know the truth than to delude yourself for happiness?
Marge: Well... um.... [goes outside to jump on tampoline with Homer.]
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Pachomius
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62 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  16:15:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pachomius a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Neurosis

The rate of hair growth in all animals is seasonal and goes about in stages. One hair falls out as another follicle is activated and so on and so forth. Also, the is a limit to the length of hair in different parts of the body and that is genetic to each individual and of course species. Take the human arm hair for example. Do you shave your arms Pachomius?

Here is a good source for more info.



Thanks, guys, for your information and also your speculation. That was fun, wasn't it?

First, I notice that I make an assumption because I crudely observe that human scalp and facial hairs grow and grow and grow, therefore they grow indefinitely; which is not so were I to just observe say ten strands of hair on my head and see how long they will grow and whether they fall off even without being pulled off.

Thanks, all you guys who point that out to me.

Can we say then that as with life which eventually ends in time, so also everything that increases in size as in length eventually stops its growth and falls off; but with hair, a new one comes from the same hair follicle to succeed the previous now fallen or molted one?

By the way, I don't shave my armpit hair; but I have seen guys and gals with longer than usual armpit hairs. Yes, women generally shave off armpit hair but I am sure if you look around carefully you will still see women who don't. My wife doesn't shave armpit hair, why? Because for woe or weal she does not grow armpit hair; she was born bald there. You are asking me what about below? Okay, very little also and very short -- I don't know about other women, I am privy only to one woman, my wife.*

Let me look up longest hair and report back...

So, I entered "longest hair" in Google and the first hit is the following:
quote:
Web Results 1 - 100 of about 53,400 English pages for "longest hair". (0.27 seconds)

World's Longest Hair record broken in Northern ThailandNorthern Thailand is proud of the achievement of Mr Hook, a Hmong tribesman almost 90 years old.
www.thaifocus.com/news/stories/longhair.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


Here are some excerpts from that news item:

quote:
Thaifocus Travel News
http://www.thaifocus.com/news/stories/longhair.htm

World Beater
Mae Taeng, near Chiang Mai N.Thailand
August 1998 - by Adam Flinn

Long Hair Record smashed twice.

A long-standing record was broken twice the same day in a tribal settlement in Northern Thailand. Unwittingly a Hmong tribal village in Mae Taeng district Chiang Mai had been home to the new world beaters for almost nine decades Unbeknown to the winners, Mr Hook aged eighty five and his elder brother, of two years, their hair was lengths longer than the current record holder. The Guinness Book of World Records documented the hair length of a lady from Uijai, India as 4.17m (13 ft 10.5 ") in February 1994 in their latest annual.

The first measurement of Mr Yee, the elder brother was taken from the crown of the head to the tip of the mane (excluding stray strands). It was recorded a length of 4.85 meters, 27 cm longer than that of the existing record holder. His claim to the title was, however, short -lived as seconds later his younger brother Mr Hook, who is also the village Shaman, measured in at an astonishing 5.24 m - 1.73 m longer to become the undisputed world master.

. . . . .

Mr Hook had kept had not had a hair cut since his late teens. He became ill after a trim and a dream warned him against further snips. Shortly afterwards he became the village Shaman and, seven decades later, is still the villagers main source of spiritual wisdom and herbal remedies. He keeps the hair rolled up like a conical rope that rests on top of his head. It is held in place by a woollen hat. The hair is matted and washed one time per year. "It keeps me warm" he told us.

. . . . .

The record was witnessed by a team of local reporters and an ex-British Counsel. AP/TV sent a camera crew to record the event which has since been syndicated, and shown, to international distributors, CNN and the BBC. Tape measures from Thailand and Switzerland were used to verify the length. The record was organized by Thaifocus and is set to appear in the next publication of the Guinness Book of Records.




Forgive, but I just couldn't help looking up the latest record holder in Guinness, and here it is:

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/human_body/extreme_bodies/longest_hair.aspx


That's the beauty of hair talk, we can do observation and experimentation; but when it comes to Buddhism, its ideas are all speculative, or more correctly those ideas which cannot be in our present state of theoretical science and actual technology, subject to observation and experimentation; however practices can be, to establish whether the practices truly effect beneficial results to people, like for example Buddhist meditation; and if so whether the benefits could be easier, quicker, and better obtained by other ways and means outside Buddhism.

Again, thanks, guys, for your contribution to my knowledge; I have learned not to just depend on thinking even based on crude observation. But another jab at Buddhism, what about depending on meditation to attain enlightenment whatever that is supposed to mean, that's what Buddhists do and why they are most curious for me to investigate.


I am off now to my thread on compatibility or incompatibility between rational skepticism and Buddhism. Please join me there.


Pachomius

*A guy in the office asked me when he just got married -- no longer in the office anymore, why he could not have an erection when he saw his bride with profuse long hair down below; he said he was thinking of filing for divorce on the ground of impotence from his own part. I told him the preliminary hearing would require you to work at your problem and would ask your bride to shave her hair down below.

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  17:45:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
What the hell is your problem with Buddhism, anyway? It's a lot less objectionable than most other religious delusions. Besides, one man's enlightenment is another's Sunday morning hangover.



I guess it was a couple of years or so ago that I read of a guy, in England if memory serves, who cultivated his moustash out to several feet. It looked like it took at least a pound of pomade to keep the thing rolled up and off the ground. It nicely demonstrates the tiny, genetic differences present in any species, most of which get lost in the shuffle within a few generations.

Yes, it is an interesting thread...





"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2006 :  20:29:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

I told him the preliminary hearing would require you to work at your problem and would ask your bride to shave her hair down below.
Are you a divorce lawyer?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pachomius
BANNED

62 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  15:23:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pachomius a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

What the hell is your problem with Buddhism, anyway? It's a lot less objectionable than most other religious delusions. Besides, one man's enlightenment is another's Sunday morning hangover.



I guess it was a couple of years or so ago that I read of a guy, in England if memory serves, who cultivated his moustash out to...


Yes, it is an interesting thread...






Thanks, filthy, for finding this thread an interesting one. I always like to bring up topics interesting for everyone to join in.

About Buddhism, I decided to be a master at critique and criticism of Buddhism, just as there is a guy in the web also a skeptic who is into critique and criticism of Scientology.

No, I don't have anything personal against Buddhism and Buddhists, not like as with racist people who have personal prejudices against other humans belonging to races not similar to theirs.

You see, I had been writing in message boards for some maybe five years, and it dawned upon me one day that to do something different and original for myself I should choose a subject where anyone can become well versed in by just reading and thinking and using simple experimentation and observation, and that subject is Buddhism and Buddhists -- at least for myself.

The more I read and think and observe and experiment in regard to Buddhism and Buddhists the more I find it a most absorbing study, and in the process I learn so many things for my own advancement in knowledge and also in what we might call life wisdom -- which of course is not from Buddhism, but from my own experiences and findings.

There are dangers in doing critique and criticism of Buddhism though, one gets bad unpleasant namecalling from fellow posters, even banned eventually though in boards eloquent about free inquiry, free thought, and free speech.

Yes, I have been banned in several such boards for precisely doing critique and criticism of Buddhism. And that is why I feel that the otherwise a-religious or anti-religious intelligentsia of the West who are into Buddhism at least for their psychotherapy are not happy with people who do critique and criticism of Buddhism, and very often or finally they will move to get anyone banned in a board who does do critique and criticism of Buddhism more than they want to read or want others to read, erh, not read about, that is.

I have many other topics on Buddhism coming up, aside from my first one here on why or whether rational scientific skepticism is compatible or not with Buddhism.


Susma
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Pachomius
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62 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  16:02:14   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pachomius a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.

quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

I told him the preliminary hearing would require you to work at your problem and would ask your bride to shave her hair down below.
Are you a divorce lawyer?



I started in law in college but gave up within one and a half semesters or quarters as you would say in the US(?). My subjects were Roman law, Criminal law I, II, Marriage and family relations, Philosophy of law. The subject I liked most was Roman law.

So people in the office come to me for quick legal consultation, even though if they are wide readers they should know the answers to their own questions.

Are you a Buddhist or Buddhism sympathizer or at least you feel some partisanship for the Dalai Lama, or maybe you have gone into Buddhist meditation and have reaped fruits of good adjustment to life and reality from the practice?

Are you aware that in Buddhist thinking, in effect the you and the whole world is all illusion, literally. That is why also for me Buddhism is such an interesting study, examination, because the you or I or he, she, it: is not, also the world itself, it's all illusion, only you are ignorant about the truism.

See? everything including yourself is not, or it's all illusion, and you being an illusion is ignorant of the illusion; so once you get over your illusion, what will happen? shouldn't you then just disappear like the Cheshire cat even the smile in your lips? But no, Buddhists are still around and giving instructions on meditation by which you will be convinced that you are not, it's all illusion.


Susma
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26009 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  16:02:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

I have many other topics on Buddhism coming up, aside from my first one here on why or whether rational scientific skepticism is compatible or not with Buddhism.
What does that even matter to you, since you don't practice rational scientific skepticism?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Pachomius
BANNED

62 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  16:17:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Pachomius a Private Message
quote:
What does that even matter to you, since you don't practice rational scientific skepticism?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave W.


I try my best and sincerest most to practice rational scientific skepticism; if you have the impression that because to you I don't seem to answer questions from others and therefore I don't practice rational scientific skepticism, well that is your privilege.

I don't answer questions, that is your impression and some others here, but if they stay around they will see their questions either answered or no longer of importance.

Besides, other than the people writing messages here, there are people who are reading the messages, even guests visiting here. They are the ones who can see for themselves and derive benefits to themselves in the increase of critical knowledge and also useful tips for living life.

You see, even without answering each other interminably, we can be of help to readers who are after reading useful information or opinions or even shall we say premises and logic from participants in a thread?

Besides, when someone expects an answer and he does not get one, then he should congratulate himself because his counter-discussant could be at a loss for ideas or words to answer him.


Susma
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular

Australia
800 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  16:46:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit JohnOAS's Homepage Send JohnOAS a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

I don't answer questions, that is your impression and some others here, but if they stay around they will see their questions either answered or no longer of importance.

The evidence to date suggests that the former is more likely than the latter. I would suggest that if you're going to ignore someone's questions deliberately, for whatever reason, it might be polite to acknowledge this fact. Or you could simply make a blanket statement to this effect and people can read your posts forewarned that a discussion will not be entered into.

quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

Besides, other than the people writing messages here, there are people who are reading the messages, even guests visiting here.
...
You see, even without answering each other interminably, we can be of help to readers who are after reading useful information or opinions or even shall we say premises and logic from participants in a thread?

This is a discussion forum. If you simply want to preach at people, there are more appropriate mediums. If you'd like to make a good impression with the lurkers, you would also do well to make the discussion a, well, discussion.

I'm pretty sure you wont be banned from SFN just for being a poor communicator, but I'm not a moderator and my opinion carries no weight on the matter. You may well find yourself being ignored though.

quote:
Originally posted by Pachomius

Besides, when someone expects an answer and he does not get one, then he should congratulate himself because his counter-discussant could be at a loss for ideas or words to answer him.

Yeah, I'm sure that's how most spammers feel. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to know that just by ignoring them I'm validating their existences for them.

John's just this guy, you know.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2006 :  17:26:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
Yeah, but Pachomius, don't you think that all of this makes you out to be a "one-trick-pony," as the saying goes? We discuss a lot of things here, various religions and their enablers being only a part of it. To fully participate, you need to broaden your horizons, lest you become as white noise in the background.

Suggestion: as you seem to be pretty knowlegable on Buddhism, why not write an article, or even a series of them, on the topic and submit it all to Dave W.? You certainly write well enough to build a good read. Then, when that's done, join the fray.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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