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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  11:04:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
R. Wreck wrote:
quote:
finding that they are unfit to homeschool.
The problem there is figuring out who is unfit and who is fit. Kids have to pass various tests to show they know specific knowledge for their grade level and eventually for their HS degree. Fundamentalists who homeschool are very good at teaching to the test while at the same time providing additional info for the purpose of debunking evolution and anything else which contends with their faith. So if the kids can pass the tests with flying colors, how does an outside authority figure out that they are also being taught fundamentalism? Should we start keeping tabs on whether homeschooling parents attend megachurches? Start investigating their personal lives in some other way? I just don't see how this can be done.

But more importantly, I don't see why it should be done. A person can live a perfectly upright and peaceful life while also holding fundamentalist beliefs. So on what grounds should society say that this set of beliefs shouldn't be taught, but this set should? The law should be restricted to dealing with actions, not beliefs. It is written right into our Constitution, and I'm quite glad it is.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 12/16/2006 11:04:47
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 12/16/2006 :  20:43:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
Thank you marf.....

Homeschooling is very personal for me for a few reasons.

First.... Damn, I wish I would have been homeschooled...... I abhoreded just about every minute of school.... Try hitting High School at less then 90 pounds, braces on still slightly buch-teeth, and a back brace to boot. Ad an attitude that says "I am not going to take your shit", stand up for a few that were also instantly leporized by all the cliques..........

Sexond, my siste homeschools. She is a bit (well, a whole helluva lot) more religious then me. She was quickly turned off by some of the fundamentalist stuff (dinosaurs on the ark...), but it is still a valuable resource for them. My niece is hoping to jump to grades and start high school in an acelerated private school (they are all early starters). My niece looks at faith as faith, believes in Jesus and God. She doesn't appear to have any garbage associated....... My 8yo nephew is a bit difirent (a lot, actually). He still can't read well, but does algebra..... Go figure......

Me, I would love to homeschool my little girls, but I doubt it is in the cards. We moved to an excelent school district, into a too small house that needed a lot of work, and pay a ton of taxes... So hpefully it will work out. The district has more money then it really needs, and was stunned when the last levy failed. They had to let the archery and green-house teachers go....... Sad, Sad, Sad.....

But I really digressed.... Back to the point....

Keep the bloody state out anyones lives unless you are absolutly sure that child will be better off without their parents. There is still far too much abuse by the states.

Peace
Joe
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2006 :  10:55:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox:

R. Wreck wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
finding that they are unfit to homeschool.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem there is figuring out who is unfit and who is fit. Kids have to pass various tests to show they know specific knowledge for their grade level and eventually for their HS degree. Fundamentalists who homeschool are very good at teaching to the test while at the same time providing additional info for the purpose of debunking evolution and anything else which contends with their faith. So if the kids can pass the tests with flying colors, how does an outside authority figure out that they are also being taught fundamentalism? Should we start keeping tabs on whether homeschooling parents attend megachurches? Start investigating their personal lives in some other way? I just don't see how this can be done.

But more importantly, I don't see why it should be done. A person can live a perfectly upright and peaceful life while also holding fundamentalist beliefs. So on what grounds should society say that this set of beliefs shouldn't be taught, but this set should? The law should be restricted to dealing with actions, not beliefs. It is written right into our Constitution, and I'm quite glad it is.




Have you read the winning essays, marf? Do you think these kids could pass a test written to verify their knowledge of science when they've been brainwashed to deny a large portion of scientific knowledge and replace it with Ken Ham's ridiculous interpretations of a book of fables? Why should homeschoolers not be held to the same standards as the public schools? I am not suggesting that the government go around snooping into peoples beliefs just for the hell of it. I am not suggesting that the government outlaw religious instruction. I am suggesting that if you desire to substitute your kitchen table for a public school, then your ability to give your children a proper education should be examined. And if you don't meet the standards, then you send your kid to someplace that does.

As someone once said:

quote:
If old myths cannot withstand the test of more convincing modern ideas, they will and should fade away as the culture at large changes.


Proper regulation of homeschooling would be a small step in helping this along.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2006 :  12:50:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message
quote:
I am suggesting that if you desire to substitute your kitchen table for a public school, then your ability to give your children a proper education should be examined. And if you don't meet the standards, then you send your kid to someplace that does.


I don't know much about home schooling, but it seems to be marf already stated that this happens:

quote:
Fundamentalists who homeschool are very good at teaching to the test while at the same time providing additional info for the purpose of debunking evolution and anything else which contends with their faith. So if the kids can pass the tests with flying colors, how does an outside authority figure out that they are also being taught fundamentalism?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/25/2006 :  11:28:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message
R. Wreck wrote:
quote:
Do you think these kids could pass a test written to verify their knowledge of science when they've been brainwashed to deny a large portion of scientific knowledge and replace it with Ken Ham's ridiculous interpretations of a book of fables? Why should homeschoolers not be held to the same standards as the public schools?
They are held to the same standards. Have you seen the test to get your GED? Our public school standards aren't exactly very high. There is no crisis of homeschooled children getting a poorer education than our often mediocre public schools, and they frequently get a better education. What freaks people out about homeschooling is not that the kids aren't getting the info. We know they get the info because they pass the tests. But they are not mainstreamed culturally, and diversity freaks people out. Personally, I am comfortable with living among fundamentalists, so long as they don't suceed in passing laws that limit my and my friends freedoms. If fundies go back to the way they were before the Republican party started courting them (not being especially interested in politics, but rather, keeping to their own local communities) I am perfectly happy to have them as part of the fabric of American culture and society.

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  07:36:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message
What is the difirence between a parent that homeschools their child and fill their head full of nonscence and a school system that does the same? Just difirent nonscence.

I think that the schools should be held to my sisters standards.

Peace
Joe
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/26/2006 :  20:19:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
To comment on Oreilly's comments about the video:

Bill doesn't want to open that can of worms. If he thinks the parents of that child should be charged with some crime, then what is he going to say when people start insisting that the parents of some religious hate-spewing 8y/o are charged?


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2006 :  15:54:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
marf wrote:

R. Wreck wrote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think these kids could pass a test written to verify their knowledge of science when they've been brainwashed to deny a large portion of scientific knowledge and replace it with Ken Ham's ridiculous interpretations of a book of fables? Why should homeschoolers not be held to the same standards as the public schools?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are held to the same standards. Have you seen the test to get your GED? Our public school standards aren't exactly very high. There is no crisis of homeschooled children getting a poorer education than our often mediocre public schools, and they frequently get a better education. What freaks people out about homeschooling is not that the kids aren't getting the info. We know they get the info because they pass the tests.



Yes, I forgot how overwhelmingly mediocre the average public school can be, especially when it comes to science education. I am, however, specifically addressing the kids showcased in Ken Ham's ridiculous essay contest. The problem is not just that these kids aren't getting a good science education, it's that they are getting miseducation in this area. They would be better off not learning any science than being taught Ham's twisted version of it. They are being negatively educated in this area, and that is a great diservice to the kids, especially in this day and age when the average person in western society has access to a staggering amount of scientific learning. These kids, who may very well be quite intelligent, could be standing on the shoulders of giants. Instead they are forced to wallow with a moron like Ham.


quote:
But they are not mainstreamed culturally, and diversity freaks people out. Personally, I am comfortable with living among fundamentalists, so long as they don't suceed in passing laws that limit my and my friends freedoms. If fundies go back to the way they were before the Republican party started courting them (not being especially interested in politics, but rather, keeping to their own local communities) I am perfectly happy to have them as part of the fabric of American culture and society.



I am not freaked out by diversity. I am bothered by people who not only refuse to help their children reach their full potential, but teach them utter nonsense and call it science. And I don't see the fundy toothpaste going back in the tube any time soon. The most loony of them do want to pass laws restricting your freedoms, right up to recasting this country into their own bible based asylum. That's a thread that the fabric of our society would be better off without.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular

USA
1191 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2006 :  15:58:00   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send R.Wreck a Private Message
quote:
Original_Intent wrote:


What is the difirence between a parent that homeschools their child and fill their head full of nonscence and a school system that does the same? Just difirent nonscence.

I think that the schools should be held to my sisters standards.




What specific nonsense from the school system are you referring to?

Again, I am referring specifically to Ken Ham's little project to make kids as stupid as he is. I am not condemning homeschooling. I don't know your sister or what she teaches, so I can't comment on her standards vs public schools.

The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley

The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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