Skeptic Friends Network

Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
Home | Forums | Active Topics | Active Polls | Register | FAQ | Contact Us  
  Connect: Chat | SFN Messenger | Buddy List | Members
Personalize: Profile | My Page | Forum Bookmarks  
 All Forums
 Community Forums
 General Discussion
 Web Banners Promoting Free Speech Causes
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  12:09:48  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
While posting support for a Press Freedom cause I saw they requested people could show support by posting a banner on their web site.

The banners are as small as a tiny box with just a couple words to about 1x1 inch.
http://www.prwatch.org/defendthepress/buttons.html

I'm not suggesting SFN support all sorts of political causes, but I think supporting any that are consistent with the skeptics' goals would be a good thing. We have links to other skeptic sites including sites like Quackwatch.

What do people think about links to non-profit organizations with causes like free speech and/or freedom of the press? Are those consistent with skeptics' goals? I think so. Net neutrality is another free speech cause I also think is critical to information access which is in turn critical for skeptical thinking. I don't have a site in mind for that cause but I'm sure there are organizations fighting for it.




Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/30/2007 12:10:19

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  12:43:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Free-speech is a double edged sword which has been given a pass as harmless/all-positive for far too long. The free-press inst all innocent either especially when mixed with profit maximizing corporate culture.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  13:03:33   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Just to clarify, Im not for Big Brother or anything, Im just sick of the false idea that freedom(s) are all-positive.

Glory to Hypnotoad!

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  13:15:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message
I think many people confuse the term "free-speech".

Free-speech does not mean someone can say anything and get away with it.

Free-speech means you will not be be censored before you can say what you think.
However, you will be held accountable and face the consequences of what you´ve stated.

It´s like a politician saying that the opposition´s candidate is a thief, a rapist, school-playground drug-dealing thug.

He/she should not be censored before getting a chance to say it, BUT is proof is not presented, then the person making that statement will probably face charges for slander and be taken to court.

Now, that is just an example, not the best example, by the way, but hope you get the point.

Cheers!

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9672 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  14:33:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message
So, George W Bush was just practicing his free speech when he told the American people that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that Saddam was in on the 9/11 attack?

Ok, sorry, I just went into political rant mode. It's my personal opinion, which may differ from the official position of Skeptic Friends Network, and should thus not be considered as such.

Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
Go to Top of Page

perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  14:49:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

So, George W Bush was just practicing his free speech when he told the American people that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that Saddam was in on the 9/11 attack?

Ok, sorry, I just went into political rant mode. It's my personal opinion, which may differ from the official position of Skeptic Friends Network, and should thus not be considered as such.



In the US (and possibly many other countries) it would be that same GW Bush doing the censoring of speech.

Imagine that!

(well, not himself, but people under his authority, since he is the head of state)

Salud!

Edited to add: And under free-speech laws, he should have faced the consequences of his lies.

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
Edited by - perrodetokio on 01/30/2007 14:53:53
Go to Top of Page

beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2007 :  15:15:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Just to clarify, Im not for Big Brother or anything, Im just sick of the false idea that freedom(s) are all-positive.

Glory to Hypnotoad!

Does this comment reflect on the organization I linked to or is it a general comment? I certainly expected any linked site be evaluated individually. My point was criteria for linking to other sites might be expanded to some areas with political activity if the sites were consistent with skeptic goals.


BTW, the North Texas Skeptics know about SFN. I haven't checked if SFN has any links to their site.



Edited by - beskeptigal on 01/30/2007 15:19:12
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  06:28:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
B, no I have no issues with your links, they're politics just dont apply to my 'skeptic goals'.


and Perrodetkio
quote:
I think many people confuse the term "free-speech".

Free-speech does not mean someone can say anything and get away with it.

Free-speech means you will not be be censored before you can say what you think.
However, you will be held accountable and face the consequences of what you´ve stated.



You overestimate the consequences of most things, sure if you threaten the President you are gonna get a knock at your door, but if you make Neo-Nazi recruiting music which is very sucessful with children, what are the consequences? More Nazis?

Also how often do politicos/talking heads get taken to court for slander? I hear outright bald-faced lies every day but very few court cases...

p.s. in the U.S. that is.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 01/31/2007 06:31:22
Go to Top of Page

perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  10:49:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

You overestimate the consequences of most things, sure if you threaten the President you are gonna get a knock at your door, but if you make Neo-Nazi recruiting music which is very sucessful with children, what are the consequences? More Nazis?



I would think that if you do that, or make terrorists recruiting music or music inciting murder or racial hate you would probably face jail like it has happened in the past.

These are extreme examples (I understand they´ve been given to clearly illustrate the issue), however where do you draw the line in more subtle cases?

I read today that an african newspaper was temporarly shut-down for reporting about the country´s king accepting a "commission" (bribe) from a company in order to exploit their pretrol resources.

Without free-speech (with its bad and good sides) that would happen everytime someone reports anything that the people with power do not want voiced.

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Also how often do politicos/talking heads get taken to court for slander? I hear outright bald-faced lies every day but very few court cases...

p.s. in the U.S. that is.



That´s another issue. That because the system is relatively corrupt does not grant doing away with free-speech, otherwise it would become totally corrupt.

Who decides what is OK to be voiced and what isn´t?

And in another tone,if I walk-up to someone I don´t know on the street and say to him/her "you are an a**hole", is that considered "free-speech"?

Also, is it the same to say "I do not agree with you" than "you´re totally f**ked-up
in the head"?

It is a very tricky issue this free-speech thing, with its gray areas, however doing away with it is not (in my vey humble opinion) very safe.

cheers!

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  11:03:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by perrodetokio

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

You overestimate the consequences of most things, sure if you threaten the President you are gonna get a knock at your door, but if you make Neo-Nazi recruiting music which is very sucessful with children, what are the consequences? More Nazis?



I would think that if you do that, or make terrorists recruiting music or music inciting murder or racial hate you would probably face jail like it has happened in the past.

These are extreme examples (I understand they´ve been given to clearly illustrate the issue), however where do you draw the line in more subtle cases?

I read today that an african newspaper was temporarly shut-down for reporting about the country´s king accepting a "commission" (bribe) from a company in order to exploit their pretrol resources.

Without free-speech (with its bad and good sides) that would happen everytime someone reports anything that the people with power do not want voiced.

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf

Also how often do politicos/talking heads get taken to court for slander? I hear outright bald-faced lies every day but very few court cases...

p.s. in the U.S. that is.



That´s another issue. That because the system is relatively corrupt does not grant doing away with free-speech, otherwise it would become totally corrupt.

Who decides what is OK to be voiced and what isn´t?

And in another tone,if I walk-up to someone I don´t know on the street and say to him/her "you are an a**hole", is that considered "free-speech"?

Also, is it the same to say "I do not agree with you" than "you´re totally f**ked-up
in the head"?

It is a very tricky issue this free-speech thing, with its gray areas, however doing away with it is not (in my vey humble opinion) very safe.

cheers!



I never advocated doing away with free-speech, I only said it is a doudle-edged sword and misrepresented by its advocates.

As for who gets to decide what is right and wrong, GEORGE BUSH IS THE DECIDER! JK. Really arent you just pretending that someone doesnt already do that?

The fact is I can make Neo-Nazi/hate music and it isnt illigal no matter how destructive it is as long as I dont directly say, "Go and kill X".

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard

3192 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  11:08:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send BigPapaSmurf a Private Message
Aslo pretending that the system wont always be corrupt isnt healthy either, you cannot make a perfect world with imperfect people.

"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History

"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini
Go to Top of Page

perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend

275 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2007 :  15:06:29   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send perrodetokio a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf



I never advocated doing away with free-speech, I only said it is a doudle-edged sword and misrepresented by its advocates.




Very true! I would add that is misrepresented by both, people in favour and against it.

quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf



Aslo pretending that the system wont always be corrupt isnt healthy either, you cannot make a perfect world with imperfect people.



Also very true and that is one of the main reasons why free-speech is so important.

"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott

"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott

"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly Bookmark this Topic BookMark Topic
Jump To:

The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.


Home | Skeptic Forums | Skeptic Summary | The Kil Report | Creation/Evolution | Rationally Speaking | Skeptillaneous | About Skepticism | Fan Mail | Claims List | Calendar & Events | Skeptic Links | Book Reviews | Gift Shop | SFN on Facebook | Staff | Contact Us

Skeptic Friends Network
© 2008 Skeptic Friends Network Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.27 seconds.
Powered by @tomic Studio
Snitz Forums 2000