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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2002 : 22:28:39
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I skimmed through the other tread on abortion here and as someone who cannot get into her head why anyone should tell a woman what to do with her body, I'd like to hear some opinions on that.
I'm somewhat new around here, the explanation in case anyone goes:"Why this again"? :D
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2002 : 23:36:43 [Permalink]
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Omega, this tends to be an emotionally charged subject for some people.
There are those who say, its human life, it should not be destroyed.
There are those who equate abortion to wart removal. Its an inconvenience, get rid of it.
I'm in the second group. Actually it goes a little deeper than that. I don't have kids. I don't want or like kids. If I found myself pregnant, why on earth should I bring another unwanted child into this world when I can get rid of it when its just a clump of cells.
Late term abortion opens up a whole new can of worms. I'm a fence sitter where that's concerned. If a woman waits that long, there'd better be a good reason.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 01:20:38 [Permalink]
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[quote]
its just a clump of cells.
Late term abortion opens up a whole new can of worms. I'm a fence sitter where that's concerned. If a woman waits that long, there'd better be a good reason.
Lisa
[/quote]
Yes it is just a few cells, I can't understand WHY all the fuss.
Late term! Well, how about the reason that they are just too damn many people here already. A baby isn't a person either.
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 04:07:53 [Permalink]
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Ditto what Lisa said. I can't see why some people simply refuse to see why over-population and unwanted children are a problem. One factor is the mindless pro-natalism engrained in our culture (it's nice to hear the voice of another non-breeder in the network).
"Great things are not accomplished by those who yeild to trends and fads and popular opinion." --Charles Kuralt |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 05:09:40 [Permalink]
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I'm a non-breeder too, although I do have step-kids that I love dearly. I generally agree with Lisa's comments about abortion.
One of the problems with late-term abortions is that it is now just about possible to keep a baby born very prematurely alive at the same number of weeks as it is legal to abort it.
"Be realistic, demand the impossible" - graffiti from Paris, May 1968.
Edited by - NottyImp on 03/22/2002 05:10:14 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 09:39:22 [Permalink]
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I'll refer you back to the other thread. I don't think I want to have to do that much typing right now. Specifically regarding late term abortions. It's legal standards, as Notty points out, a fetus can be kept alive at the point most abortions are made illegal. Yet you put yourself on the slippery slope when allowing early term abortions but not late on the fact that a later term fetus is more 'human'. In fact, the prolife states that the fetus is human from conception, which in itself imposes a whole slew of problems, but once on the slope, advances in technology and medicine are going to push that 'abortion date' earlier and earlier in the term. Keep in mind, some late term abortions are due to genetic problems that can not be found until later in the pregnancy, around 27 weeks out of a 34 week gestation period. That's more than 3/4 of the way through gestation. Hence, you have the woman that would be forced into caring for an unwanted child because the genetic defects were found too late. Additionally, gestation period is not an exact pinpoint based on the uncertainty in figuring just when a woman became pregnant. Sorry - read the other threads for my view.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 10:08:53 [Permalink]
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"Yet you put yourself on the slippery slope when allowing early term abortions but not late on the fact that a later term fetus is more 'human'." (Trish)
I agree. I think that my point is that advances in technology have complicated that debate for lay-people (like myself, I guess), and it is easier for "pro-lifers" to say "Look, if we can keep a premature birth alive at x-number of weeks, then abortion at this point is murder etc. etc."
I will read the other (very long) thread when I get a mo'.
"Be realistic, demand the impossible" - graffiti from Paris, May 1968.
Edited by - NottyImp on 03/22/2002 10:10:27 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2002 : 11:02:49 [Permalink]
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Interested parties might want to check out "Are Hospitals Crossing the Line?" in General Discussion.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 00:52:58 [Permalink]
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[quote]
One of the problems with late-term abortions is that it is now just about possible to keep a baby born very prematurely alive at the same number of weeks as it is legal to abort it.
[/quote]
Just goes to show that advances in technology are not always for the best.
Nature would have taken care of many of the infants born with defects by killing them had not science intervened. I don't know why we and I do me WE, have to pay thousands of dollars to save one human baby, who I might add in many cases wouldn't grow up to be 'normal' or healthy, putting an added burden on society. They certainly don't do that with other animals. Which IMO is very sad.
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
Edited by - snake on 03/23/2002 01:03:17 |
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Badger
Skeptic Friend
Canada
257 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 09:44:19 [Permalink]
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I really don't understand how anyone can be against personal choice, in this matter.
I am a breeder, and got my (then girlfriend) pregnant when I was 19 and she was 18. I was for going full term, and raising the child, but it was her body so even though 1/2 my genes were involved, it wasn't so much my call. Almost every day I feel bad about it, though. The kid would have been 18 shortly.
You may ask "what life would that child have had?" being raised by 2 teenagers. We'll never know, but I would tend to think that she and I would have been as good parents as we were to our daughter who was born 10 years later.
Still, not my body, not my call.
As for late term abortions, didn't most aborigionals leave unwanted children outside to be eaten, frozen, drowned, sunbaked, or whatever? Please note that I'm not being racist here, it's just that the HISTORY of what us whitey's did to our unwanted children is kind of in short supply for some reason....
It seems to me that I remember every fuckin thing I know. (Tragically Hip) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 16:30:46 [Permalink]
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[quote]
As for late term abortions, didn't most aborigionals leave unwanted children outside to be eaten, frozen, drowned, sunbaked, or whatever? Please note that I'm not being racist here, it's just that the HISTORY of what us whitey's did to our unwanted children is kind of in short supply for some reason....
[/quote]
I don't think that sounds racist. IMO you are too sensitive, but like you said....your mind, your call, to pharaphrase.
I've never heard that about them doing that to children. I'm sure it probably has happened but I have heard about the elderly being left to die like that. I believe something to do with the Eskimo culture.
Who is anyone to judge what another culture should or shouldn't do? And by what standards?
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 18:23:43 [Permalink]
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Snake makes my point very well with the concept of a burden upon society. Who pays for that burden - the individual upon whom society pushed it's morality or the society itself. Though I really disagree with associating euthanasia with abortion. IMO they are not flip sides of the same coin. An abortion results in the removal of a fetus, a mass of cells, this mass of cells has contributed nothing to the furtherance of society. An adult has been educated by society and has made contributions to society (we hope anyway). This is the inherent difference between euthanasia and abortion, potential vs tangible. An adult has made a tangible impact on society (speaking in specifically small groups) and so the weight of the loss to society vs the burden to society should be a consideration. Society could also mean family or social group just to cover my bases.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
<i>No Sense of Obligation</i> by Matt Young |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 19:34:24 [Permalink]
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To the best of my knowledge, abortions and infanticide have been used by all human societies, throughout the ages. Not just the aboriginals in Australia. When food-supplies were low, and another mouth to feed wouldn't help the groups survival, the group was being practical.
One group of historians point to the witch-burnings, as also being the churchs way of putting and end to abortions, since “wise old women”, knowledgeable about “greek methods” were burned on the stake. The reason had something to do with the burnings taking place a relatively short time after the Black Plague, which had a rather devastating effect on the population. (It's been a time since I read that, so I don't remember the specifics).
Lisa> I know it's an emotionally charged subject. I'm trying to find the core of the problem in a way. I've had an abortion myself at the age of 19, have never felt guilty, and wouldn't have had my education and seen the things I have, if I had been forced to carry a child I didn't want and was certainly not ready for.
We require licenses for cars, guns and sometimes even pets. But anybody can go an have five+ kids in as many years, no matter whether the parents are even capable of handling the children or not. Which is one of the reasons I find it amazing, that anyone would hinder a woman in getting an abortion, if she doesn't want the child.
I can have children because I am a woman. I am not a woman because I can have children.
It is a potential human life, yes, but so are eggs and sperm-cells by themselves (as someone already pointed out).
What really confuses me, is the amount of anti-abortionists who're for the death-penalty.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
-Albert Einstein |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2002 : 22:07:01 [Permalink]
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[quote]
What really confuses me, is the amount of anti-abortionists who're for the death-penalty.[/quote]
It's quite easy to justify, actually. "Guilty" vs. "innocent".
[added quotes, because I think it's appropriate in this context.]
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 03/23/2002 22:07:45 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 01:44:00 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Snake makes my point very well with the concept of a burden upon society
Though I really disagree with associating euthanasia with abortion. [/quote]
Thank you for the former comment.
On the latter one, if you are talking about what I said about the Eskimos, that was just a comment, a statement of what I think is a fact, not an argument in this disscusion.
If you are talking about the death of other then human animals because of overpopulation, they have at least the same if not more right to live than a baby human lol, and even some adult humans, IMO.
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2002 : 01:53:49 [Permalink]
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[quote]
To the best of my knowledge, abortions and infanticide have been used by all human societies, throughout the ages. Not just the aboriginals in Australia. When food-supplies were low, and another mouth to feed wouldn't help the groups survival, the group was being practical.[/quote]
This might not be the same situation but from what I learned, the reason there is so much proverty, in Africa for example, is because they want as many children as possible because they know so many will die, they need to be sure at least some will live to carry on for the family. Ironic!
And I keep saying, in all situations, everywhere and for all reasons, education is the key.
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If you take an Oriental person and spin him around several times, does he become disoriented?
George Carlin
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I'd do that at home with the one I live with to see what happens but he's too confussed already.
Snake
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