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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 19:46:10 [Permalink]
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You know, it really boggles my mind. Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating and a balanced budget. Bush will leave with somewhere around 30%. So what do they do? They go and vote for the policies of a nearly completely failed administration. There is a saying. Doing exactly the same thing (this would be the third time) expecting a different result is the definition of insane.
I never really understood why anyone would vote republican unless they were stinking rich anyhow. Because all of their programs are geared to make the stinking rich, richer, no matter who is hurt along the way. So, you know, they could never get anyone else to vote for them if they didn't promise something in return. Middle class and blue collar republicans are like the rats following the Pied Piper. A trumped up War? Fine. Deficit spending so outrageous that your great grandkids will still be paying? Fine. A shrinking middle class? Fine. Everything is fine. The death, the misery, the corruption, even treason, it's all fine as long as they promise that they are against abortions...
Go figure... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 23:01:19 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
Robb........Robb.....Robb........Are you there?
I know you're not all there, but is any of you there? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/22/2008 : 03:45:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
You know, it really boggles my mind. Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating and a balanced budget. Bush will leave with somewhere around 30%. So what do they do? They go and vote for the policies of a nearly completely failed administration. There is a saying. Doing exactly the same thing (this would be the third time) expecting a different result is the definition of insane.
I never really understood why anyone would vote republican unless they were stinking rich anyhow. Because all of their programs are geared to make the stinking rich, richer, no matter who is hurt along the way. So, you know, they could never get anyone else to vote for them if they didn't promise something in return. Middle class and blue collar republicans are like the rats following the Pied Piper. A trumped up War? Fine. Deficit spending so outrageous that your great grandkids will still be paying? Fine. A shrinking middle class? Fine. Everything is fine. The death, the misery, the corruption, even treason, it's all fine as long as they promise that they are against abortions...
Go figure...
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But Kil, we're in the bottom of a hole -- can't stop digging now!
Hoard canned goods and stockpile ammunition.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 07:25:00 [Permalink]
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| Why don't you enlighten the rest of us, because it looks like we're clueless. |
Never indicated that anyone was clueless. My point was not one of argueing which canidate is right but that Dude dismisses people as retarded if they do not agree with his conclusions.
| What compelling evidence can you provide that McCain will not continue to complete his turn-around into a Bush-clone? |
None. But what evidence is there that any canidate will do what they say in American politics? Few have. Even the great presidents Reagan and Clinton.
I have not deciden to vote for McCain. But as I have seen polls in Texas it might not matter much. These are some of the things I agree with McCain and I believe are valid solutions to some problems and are some are different than what Bush has done:
Balanced Budget Although can it be done earlier?
Energy
Taxes
Right to Life Except the marriage part.
2nd Amendment
Some I disagree on:
EducationI am not convinced that just having cjoice of schools will fix anything.
Healt Care
The overiding question is will he do what he says he will if elected? I am not convinced of that.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:15:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Robb.....
Let's clear the smoke and break the mirrors here.
Would you mind clearly stating, in detail, your opinion of the eight year administration of George W. Bush; and following that, your opinion of the Republican-dominated Congress that prevailed until 2007?
I ask this with respect and sincere interest in your answer.
I cannot comment on your inclusion in what I define as the significantly "stupid" American Electorate until you answer these two questions. Although I agree emphatically with Dude's politics, I cant assume anything about your politics until you state them.
So how about it?
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Bush:
When elected I agreed with most of what he campaigned for. Restrictive foreign policy to intervene only when necessary, Tax breaks for all incomes, Drilling in ANWR, Update military with more technology, lower taxes for small business, religious based charities, investment based social security and pro life issues.
Did not support standardized testing for students, amnesty for illegals, never said he would balance budget and had alot of promises to spend without saying where the money would come from or the marriage amendment.
My opinion of how he has done is mixed. Surely the Iraq war was a failure for most of the war, recently it has turned around but far from meeting our goals. My main opposition is how it was handled. I feel that we could have done the job better in less time. Spending is ridiculous, Bush is no better than any other politician in promising programs without knowing how to fund them. Big government growth during his term. On the other hand his stance on moral issues has been uncompromising, stance against terrorism when the rest of the world did not care, tax breaks for everybody, supreme and appeals court nominations.
Overall his presidency I would grade at a C-. As far as the republican congress I would vote everyone of them out of office if I could.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:19:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Why wouldn't I think you are retarded?
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You place more value on your opinion than on people. Why can't you disagree with others without insults? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 08:22:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Robb.....
Robb........Robb.....Robb........Are you there?
I know you're not all there, but is any of you there?
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Give me a break. Its been six hours. I do have a family and a job. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 10:04:27 [Permalink]
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Sigh... You know Robb. If you actually believe that the invasion of Iraq was about terrorism, you drank the water. I could go down the list of things you thought were okay, or good but handled poorly, and blow them to pieces.
One thing though. You have given Bush a C- which is constant with his academic performance. History will not be ask kind as you are being to him however.
As for his uncompromising morals, I just don't get it. In my lifetime there has not been an administration as immoral or unethical as this one has been. But then, as I said, all is forgiven as long as he is anti abortion and whatever other bones he throws at you guys.
Perhaps you should pick up a copy of Michael Shermers, Why People Believe Weird Things...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 12:06:30 [Permalink]
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Reagan Administration have some 29 felony convictions to it's credit? As I recall, the thieving scumbag James Watt had forty-some-odd indictments but I don't remember which he was convicted of.
Up until now, Reagan's terms in office were the most corrupt in our history and Bush the Lesser follows in his footsteps. Indeed, when you examine the policies of Reagan, all Bush has done is revisit them, even adding some of the same people to his own mal-administration. Indeed, the argument might be made that it was Reagan who started us off toward the mess we're currently in.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 13:20:33 [Permalink]
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Robb.....
Thanks for your response. I asked you for your opinion of Bush's performance and I appreciate your direct answers. With respect to your positions on McCain, I will defer comment for right now. I am reasonably sure there are others here that will speak to your points.
In any event, this election is a referendum on the Bush policies (as much as a guess as to what Mc or O will do), which policies, thank the Tetragrammaton, are passing into history!
(Whether or not history repeats itself immediately depends on the outcome of 2008, but I digress!)
But the fact that Bush is nearly history, at least affords us the opportunity to comment on what has happened, rather than what may happen!
In voting for Bush, you were looking for:
| 1. Restrictive foreign policy to intervene only when necessary |
Do you feel the preemptive Iraq war was a validation of this pledge? Do you feel that it has been a moral, Christian-type war? Has the killing, wounding and maiming of inncent Iraqi men, women, and children been up to Christian moral standards?
| 2. Tax breaks for all incomes |
Have low-income and middle income families been given tax reductions proportionate to those granted to high income ($500K+ annual) families and corporations? Has tax "relief" been fair across the board? Has there been Christian consideration of the the poor, the lame, the sick?
Are we currently drilling in ANWR? Certainly not that I feel we should, or that we need to, but did Bush and the Congress fulfil his pledge to the zombie Republican robots who blindly advocate Big Oil interests because church or boss tells them to? Should the endlessly dwindling safe haven of millions of God's creatures be sacrificed to man's greed? Is this Christian?
| 4. Update military with more technology. |
Were you happy with Rumsfeld's minimalist approach to revising, downsizing, and de-equipping the structure of the armed forces? Did we send sufficient body armor, armored vehicles, and other technology to our forces in Iraq? Have the hundreds of billions spent, wasted, and destroyed in Iraq contributed to the updating of military technology? Or even perhaps something useful like energy technology? Or medical technology? Is more military and especially endlessly more war, the Christian way for man to conduct his affairs. Is mindless killing and wounding a Christian endeavor?
| 5. Lower taxes for small business |
Do you feel that small business has received proportionate tax breaks to those given to big business? How about small business subsidies - have they been equal to those given to big business? Is endless favoring of the very rich the Christian ideal?
| 6. Religious based charities |
Has your church's charitable activities received more government assistance under the Bush administration than it did previously? What progress have faith-based charities made under Bush?
| 7. Investment based social security |
Did this happen under Bush and six years of a Republican dominated Congress?
Again, a horrible idea, but did Bush fulfil his commitment to Wall Street, which apparently was what you you wanted? Should Wall Street Masters of the Universe (from Tom Wolfe, if you don't know) be the masters of the aged and infirm citizens of this country? Should the lame, the halt, and the weak be the slaves of the money-changers in the Temple - is this Christ's wish? God's will?
Did Bush, the Republican Congess from 2000 to 2006, and the Supreme Court (with approximately equal liberal vs. conservative views) achieve progress in reversing Roe vs. Wade? Do you feel the minor progress of less late-term abortion is sufficient, or do you want to see federal laws concerning a woman's right to control of her own body? Is it a personal freedom and civil rights issue? Does federal control of women's perogatives constitute smaller, less invasive government? What does the Bible say about abortion?
In addition, by your admission:
..9. (Bush) Did not support standardized testing for students,
10. amnesty for illegals,
11. never said he would balance budget and
12. had a lot of promises to spend without saying where the money would come from or
13.(support) the marriage amendment.
14.. Surely the Iraq war was a failure for most of the war, recently it has turned around but far from meeting our goals.
15. Spending is ridiculous, Bush is no better than any other politician in promising programs without knowing how to fund them.
16. Big government growth during his term. |
Quite a litany!
On the other hand, you feel:
| A. His stance on moral issues has been uncompromising. |
Including a preemptive war that has killed (at least) tens of thousands of innocents in addition to well over 1000 Americans, and wounded and maimed over 30,000 Americans and likely hundreds of thousands of Iraquis? A war that was unnecessary, unjustified, and very likely prompted by greed related to petroleum! This is uncompromising morality? This is Christian?
Including instigating torture as a method of obtaining information?
Christian morality? Not since the Inquisition!
Including the establishment of gulags like Guantanamo to illegally imprison hundreds or thousands of "enemy combatants"? Many of those interred have been shown to be innocent.
Including the suspension of habeas corpus? Moral?
You feel that these are moral, Christian acts? Please defend your stance.
| B. stance against terrorism when the rest of the world did not care |
Great Britian seemed to care. You believe that the preemptive war against Iraq was a "stance against terrorism? Terrorism against the United States? Please defend this position
| C. tax breaks for everybody |
You believe that the Bush tax breaks were proportionately fair across the board to everybody? You believe you received proportionately as much tax relief as those earning $1M and more per year? Or corporations earning hundreds and billions of dollars a year? If you do, what do you base that belief on?
| D. supreme and appeals court nominations. |
Meaning that Bush nominated judges that were popularly expected to hand down pro-life and anti-gay decisions? Why do we want that type of legislating from the bench?
Sixteen potential points anti-Bush and four points pro-Bush! That would put the Bush failure story in the lowest quartile for Robb!
Robb, are you sure you want to grade the Bush administration a C-? Your post sounds more like a low D! History will rate him as the worst president in US history.
It appears to me, Robb, that your vote was prompted almost exclusively by an adherence to what you perceive as Christian morality precepts and that you personally deny the position that there must be a separation of church and state.
Onward Christian soldiers!!
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| Edited by - bngbuck on 08/22/2008 13:57:42 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 17:07:00 [Permalink]
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Hey Bill. Great Post!!! Unfortunately, cognitive dissonance is a very powerful motivator. Still, I wish I had put it together the way you did.
Perhaps some lurker will get it... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 17:39:57 [Permalink]
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Robb said:
| You place more value on your opinion than on people. Why can't you disagree with others without insults? |
Why sugar coat it? Is there any chance you'd actually listen if I was all namby-pamby nice?
Robb, religious "conservatives" in this country are so out of touch with reality that there isn't really much point in speaking to most of you.
You, occasionally, demonstrate a faint ember of rationality... you usually end up pouring a bucket of water on it when you get going... but sometimes you almost get it.
Religious belief cannot be the basis for laws, rules, or anything to do with governing or running a society that is founded on the freedom of people to believe whatever they want!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 18:34:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
This is uncompromising morality? This is Christian? |
To be fair, Hannibal Lecter has uncompromising morality. It's just not a very good morality. Robb didn't specify that Bush has demonstrated uncompromising Christian morality. (Or, if the Inquisitions were any indication, perhaps he has.) But the point is that how socially acceptable one's morals are is independent of how firmly they are held.
| Sixteen potential points anti-Bush and four points pro-Bush! That would put the Bush failure story in the lowest quartile for Robb! |
4 out of 20 would be the top of the fifth quintile, no?| Robb, are you sure you want to grade the Bush administration a C-? Your post sounds more like a low D! History will rate him as the worst president in US history. |
Most graders would give an F for a 59% success. So Bill, by your reckoning, Robb puts Bush at 20%, or an F--- (or thereabouts).
Unless he's grading on a curve. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 21:23:51 [Permalink]
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Grading on the same curve Bush got in college... the "has millionaire parent who is head of CIA and a major donor to the school" curve.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 19:10:32 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
The way I figured it was:
If you consider the ordered data set to be the consecutive integers 1 through 20 (Bush winners and losers), the set divides into four percentiles of 25% (1-5), 50% (1-10), 75% (1-15) and the nominal 100% (1-20)
The corresponding quartiles are 5, 10, and 15.
Q1 (1st or lower quartile) = 5
Q2 (2nd or median quartile) = 10
Q3 (3rd or upper quartile) = 15
Robb's four Bush "achievements" are in the first 25th percentile lower group (1-5) defined by the quartile Q1= 5.
The same ordered set divides into the percentiles of 20% (1-4), 40% (1-8), 60% (1-12), 80% (1-16) and the nominal 100% (1-20)
The corresponding quintiles are 4, 8, 12, and 16.
Q1 (1st or lower quintile) = 4
Q2 (2nd mid quintile) = 8
Q3 (3rd mid quintile) = 12
Q4 (4th or upper quintile) = 16
The four Bush positive achievements also fall into the first 25% or lower group (1-4), as defined by the quartile Q1 = 4
You said:| 4 out of 20 would be the top of the fifth quintile, no? |
No, it would be in the top of the first or lowest quintile. There are only four quintiles, and there are only three quartiles. No fourth quartile and no fifth quintile!
However, I said:| Sixteen potential points anti-Bush and four points pro-Bush! That would put the Bush failure story in the lowest quartile for Robb! |
I should have said:
| "Sixteen potential points anti-Bush and four points pro-Bush! That would put the Bush success story in the lowest (or first) quartile for Robb! |
So we both fucked up Statistics 101!
However, apparently there are n#8734; (how do you do Infinity in Shitz software?) ways to calculate quantiles. So we both could be right, too! Or maybe not!
Anyway, what we are talking abour here probably doesn't even qualify for this sort of analysis as it is really designed for frequency distributions in sampling statistics.
Old habits die hard!
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I don't understand how this will help
