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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 10:43:37 [Permalink]
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What would be really interesting is if Bill could post a non-materialist explanation for the existence of matter that everyone could agree is plausible and which provides an avenue for research which could be undertaken to see if it is true.
Of course, nobody else has ever been able to provide any sort of non-materialist research paradigm, so Bill would have to be the first. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 10:44:29 [Permalink]
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That's retarded.
Where somebody ask where my sandwich come from, I say 'Subway'.
Sure, it is 'interwined' with how the meat and bread were delivered to the shop, as to why the minimum wage worker got his girlfriend pregnant and had to abandon college to work there, as to how the slaughter-plant got grants to open and how to manking came to domesticate beef and cultivate wheat 3000 years BC. Among other things.
But, to say that 'Subway' is not a valid response because I did not start my answer by speaking cosmogeny is just retarded.
I can hear the super-sonic bang from here due to the speed at which the goal-posts are being shifted! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2008 : 10:56:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
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| I don't understand the fuss. |
Me neither. It's only the origin of life and matter that we are discussing here.
| All that is needed to be done is to discover a set of conditions that are satisfactory, then look for evidence that they occurred some 3.5 billion years ago. |
You guys just kill me. In all your glory and finite knowledge you like to make it sound as easy as a project for a 5th grade science fair.
Just find a set of conditions that are believed to work, look back in history 3.5 billion years to get a sense of what was going down and then connect dot A and dot B. What's the problem?
| The former is being worked on and the latter is a book soon to open. Perhaps. |
Perhaps.
Perhaps the moon is made of green cheese. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:00:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
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| Indeed, if (when) we are able to demonstrate how a life form would have emerged of chemical reactions, we'll just have to determine if these reactions would have occurred in earth's past. |
Yep. Get out your Dick Tracy magnified glass and farmers almanac for the complete history of the world and we will have this thing solved by dinner time.
If they did, it will be a logical theory to assume that it is where life come from (until we found another, more likely, set of reactions).
And it will be a rational, scientific explanation. |
More assumptions based on likely scenarios of how things might have been.
| It is fast coming the day when the God of the gaps will be homeless! |
They have been repeating that for hundreds of years now. I predict that He is here to stay. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:16:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| It is fast coming the day when the God of the gaps will be homeless! |
They have been repeating that for hundreds of years now. I predict that He is here to stay. |
Only because certain people refuse to let go of such superstitions even when confronted with data that demonstrates otherwise.
Let me know when you refuse medical treatment in exchange solely for prayers to your god, by the way. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:22:30 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| All this bullshit "skepticism" of yours bill is just that, complete bullshit. |
So not only do you hold the end all be all of intelligence but you also hold it on skepticism as well?
| Because you have no intention of following your objections to their rational conclusions. You are just stubbornly refusing to accept any evidence that endangers the supremacy of your magic man theory. |
What evidence?
| And we can all see right through you, bill. |
Good. I never intended to hide anything.
| You are transparent in your dishonesty. |
Can you give me an example?
| So just go back under whatever rock you crawled out of and leave the intelligent people alone. We get it, bill. You're stupid and proud of it. Good for you! |
Still just a one trick pony I see. Always ends up back with you playing the insult card, HH. As if insults somehow bolster your point.
| Now go worship the sky and leave the science to people who don't let religious brainwashing utterly obliterate their understanding of reality. |
I can't believe such an intelligent guy as yourself spends his days hurling insults on a backwoods website such as this. Shouldn't you and your intelligence be out saving the world or something? Or at least discovering it's origin... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:27:50 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Cuneiformist |
| It is fast coming the day when the God of the gaps will be homeless! |
They have been repeating that for hundreds of years now. I predict that He is here to stay. |
Only because certain people refuse to let go of such superstitions even when confronted with data that demonstrates otherwise. |
You got data that demonstrates that God is fast becoming homeless?
| Let me know when you refuse medical treatment in exchange solely for prayers to your god, by the way. |
I have never done this nor do I plan to.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:46:21 [Permalink]
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bill, what exactly do you think you are accomplishing by coming here and playing the idiot for all of us to beat up on? Seriously, I can't understand. Demonstrating to us that you are intractable moron over and over again. Like I said, we get it. Or are you under some sort of delusion that you hold your own in these discussions? That you don't come out looking like someone with brain damage? Just go back to singing to the sky or whatever it is that gives you comfort. Why throw yourself into the highway to be run over time and again?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/12/2008 11:47:47 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 11:53:25 [Permalink]
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| You got data that demonstrates that God is fast becoming homeless? |
I did not say 'God'; I said the 'God of the gaps'. A very specific concept.
And, indeed, his realm has retreated considerably in the last 50 years alone.
Also, you are making a big deal of figuring the conditions at the time of the apparition of life.
In reality, we do have a reasonably good idea already.
Plus, you don't need to have that good a knowledge of the conditions. Is the temperature at which these reaction occurs in the ballpark of what was found on earth at the time? Are the elements involved available enough?
And yes, it will all be likely scenarii. As is everything in sciences.
Does not work so bad, though, I'd say. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 09/12/2008 12:41:07 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:04:56 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
Why do you come here? Everybody is already well aware of your great intellect, you have made that point clear. Should a guy with such gifts sit around and preach to the choir? Stop wasting time and get out there and save the world with that intellect or a least cure cancer for us. At least show us your not the one trick pony that you demonstrate yourself to be. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:26:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
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| I don't understand the fuss. |
Me neither. It's only the origin of life and matter that we are discussing here.
| All that is needed to be done is to discover a set of conditions that are satisfactory, then look for evidence that they occurred some 3.5 billion years ago. |
You guys just kill me. In all your glory and finite knowledge you like to make it sound as easy as a project for a 5th grade science fair.
Just find a set of conditions that are believed to work, look back in history 3.5 billion years to get a sense of what was going down and then connect dot A and dot B. What's the problem?
| The former is being worked on and the latter is a book soon to open. Perhaps. |
Perhaps.
Perhaps the moon is made of green cheese.
|
But Bill, I only described the procedure and that only briefly; the actual mechanics of finding the conditions by creating a molecule, and later the evidence for or against the possibility of it happening, are much more challenging.
How much easier it must be, to look at the some Creation Myth or other (there are & have been many, one no better than rest) and state that there is no more to it than that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:35:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Why do you come here? Everybody is already well aware of your great intellect, you have made that point clear. Should a guy with such gifts sit around and preach to the choir? Stop wasting time and get out there and save the world with that intellect or a least cure cancer for us. At least show us your not the one trick pony that you demonstrate yourself to be. |
bill, no one demonstrates amazing intellectual ability by besting you. A warm glass of water is more intelligent than you. I don't come here to get my ego stroked. I come here to discuss ideas and learn. You don't. You come here to prove that you are incapable of learning. That's why I no longer try to have a reasonable discussion with you. Because you are incapable of it. It's beyond your ability. You can't even rise to the level where discussion is possible. So why come here when you can never accomplish anything?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:52:15 [Permalink]
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Here is some scientific peer reviewed research on bill's level of comprehension. Enjoy, bill, and don't say I never did anything for ya.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:56:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Why wouldn't you? |
Because what I said is self-evidently true to anyone with a brain?
I thought I'd point it out to you.
| Which you do not know the answer. And physics would be the explanation of how the chemestry began to exist. So I do see them as intertwined. |
I don't need to know the answer to know which discipline is needed to solve the question. And you don't need to know how something has begun, to know how it works after it came into existence. We do not need to know how atoms came about to know that molecules are made out of atoms and that reactions happen through the reconfiguration of atoms. Hence, the questions are not intertwined, regardless of how much you want them to be.
| But you never learned that they have effects on each other? |
Not in the way you mean. At best at the level of how electrons and atoms function now to enable chemical reactions. I don't need to know how electrons and atoms came into existence to figure that one out.
| But in the real world there is no wall of separation between abiogenesis and cosmology. That only happens in the .edu world. So I will always want to know the first cause of this lifeless matter. You can insist that in the abiogenesis discussion the origin of lifeless matter that may or may not have lead to life is not important but so would I if I believed a completely materialistic explanation can be found for all that exists. |
Blabla. Call me as soon as you have a real explanation to why I would need to know how matter arose, to need to know how it interacts. So far, all you produce on this subject is blather.
| The biggest difference between you and I is your belief that the lifeless matter will someday be explained through completely materialist explanations. I am extremely skeptical of that conclusion and have not seen much evidence to convince me otherwise |
I would be perfectly alright with a deistic viewpoint, if there were evidence for it. That viewpoint would still give me the same need to explain abiogenesis through natural means. It would just put the origination of matter in the hands of a God. I don't see it as a credible explanation at this point, but that can change if someone can provide evidence for such a suggestion.
Abiogenesis theories do not depend on theories on the origin of matter for their validity.
| I never said anything about pretending. What I said is that you think you have knowledge of how it might have been. |
Because we do have such knowledge.
| It negates that fact that you can know that you know. |
And? This is the case with all human knowledge. It is a collection of likelihoods, not of infallible knowledge.
| No. And that is my point. |
But it does cut to the chase. If you don't have any indication that it would be different, what reason do we have to posit that it was?
| Why would you just assume they are the same? |
Because absent of a credible reason, that is the logical thing to do?
Yet we assume that is not the case, and if someone would suggest my cow scenario to you in all seriousness, you'd call him insane, and with good reason. Because we have no reason whatsoever to assume things for which there is no evidence.
Yet you don't act that way.
| I would say with the whole finite knowledge thing that you can't even be sure that you know whether or not my proposition is unlikely. Because of the the conclusion that you have come to you like to label it as unlikely but you really don't know you just like to think that you do. |
Unlike you, I'm not a post-modernist.
Like?
| Exactly. And in the case of abiogenesis we have no idea what kind of circumstances there were back then. Heck we don't even know when "back then" was. We have guesses and speculation but that is all. |
We have more than guesses. Regarding the time path, we have a finite time in which abiogenesis has occurred. Regarding the circumstances, we have a number of scenario's with varying credibility.
| Likely being the key word here. My weather man said last night that because of a high pressure area we would likely see sunny skies today. As I look out the window it is cloudy and sprinkling. And your discussing likely circumstances from millions of years ago to boot. |
And? That doesn't mean we cannot determine scenarios and see which one is more probable than another.
Okay.
| But life was created. We just debate whether it was created my purely materialistic means or not. |
Fair enough.
I have yet to hear a more rational explanation then an eternal creator. Somewhere somehow whether in this dimension or another, whether in the universe or another the first matter began to exist. I see no other possibility then for it's creator or first cause to have an eternal existence. With out an eternal creator you must then have eternal matter.
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You don't need eternal matter, since energy can be converted into matter and vice versa.
But I don't see why a creator would be a more rational explanation. Eternally existing energy would be one thing, but a conscious creator would be more complex and still have the same problem of being eternally present. Why would something more complex that is eternal be more reasonable as an explanation as something that is less complex and eternal (ignoring possible other options here)? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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If this works out…
