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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:38:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by calebjones1234
Who pays for what? |
I, for one, would like to see a reduction in the Defense Department budget.
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There is no cutting that can be done.
We are currently way out of money as it is.
Read the papers?
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:41:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Everybody, essentially, pays for everybody.
If, let say, every year the equivalent of 5% of the national production is spend on health related issue, why not tax everybody at 5% and insure the (re)payement of the treatments.
That's a relatively simple system that has worked in many countries for decades.
The term 'socialized medicine', IMHO, should be avoided, not only does it have a pejorative ring to it, but its definition is so loose as to be meaningless.
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Who decides what procedures are 'worth' paying for?
In Oregon's "free health plan" the State sent an elderly cancer patient a letter stating they they would not pay for her doctor prescribed treatment, treatment which she had had payed for in the past. To add insult to injury, in the same letter in which the State refused to pay for the doctor prescribed treatment, the State offered to pay for doctor assisted suicide.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:46:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by calebjones1234
Who pays for what? |
I, for one, would like to see a reduction in the Defense Department budget. |
There is no cutting that can be done.
We are currently way out of money as it is.
Read the papers? |
Huh? You're not making any sense. Of course there is money that can be cut from the DoD budget. Here is a blurb about it. There are all sorts of "cutting that can be done". One may or may not agree with such cutting, but to suggest that it cannot be done is false. |
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:46:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
[quote]Well, it's impossible to imagine that the US is going to switch to a government takeover of hospitals and health care providers.
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It would also have been just recently impossible to imagine the government taking over the finical industry.
I believe that the U.S. Government will now be the largest holder of American homes as collateral.
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calebjones1234
BANNED
95 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:50:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
[quote]Huh? You're not making any sense. Of course there is money that can be cut from the DoD budget. Here is a blurb about it. There are all sorts of "cutting that can be done". One may or may not agree with such cutting, but to suggest that it cannot be done is false.
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They are creating new money now to pay for such things.
Much of the money allocated in the budget does not exist until the government borrows it, which is the creation of new money. Are you familiar with the term inflation? You are aware of the drastic increases in the cost of commodities, yes? This is due to the creation of new money which is not in correlation with new real wealth creation.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26021 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 19:53:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
There is no cutting that can be done. |
Finish a couple of wars, and then look. I'm sure that filthy's medical service dreams won't be realized overnight, so we've got time to get back to the good ol' days when there was fat to be trimmed. The idea that this has to be implemented in the fiscal 2009 budget is a little extreme, no? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 20:25:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
[quote]Huh? You're not making any sense. Of course there is money that can be cut from the DoD budget. Here is a blurb about it. There are all sorts of "cutting that can be done". One may or may not agree with such cutting, but to suggest that it cannot be done is false.
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They are creating new money now to pay for such things.
Much of the money allocated in the budget does not exist until the government borrows it, which is the creation of new money. Are you familiar with the term inflation? You are aware of the drastic increases in the cost of commodities, yes? This is due to the creation of new money which is not in correlation with new real wealth creation. |
Jerome? Is that you? I love nonsensical arguments made in a condescending tone! A sure-fire way to win someone over! |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 22:03:44 [Permalink]
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Doubt its Jerome. The sentences are complete (mostly) and no obvious spelling/grammar errors....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 22:04:47 [Permalink]
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Doubt its Jerome. The sentences are complete (mostly) and no obvious spelling/grammar errors....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Zeked
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 23:00:09 [Permalink]
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If you find a quote you think is yours great...
Kil
| Obama has pledged that he would not attack a nation unless it poses a direct threat to our national security. No more Iraq's. No more preemptive wars based on trumped up evidence. |
Well we can certainly hope. Obama speaks of wars of pre-emption with Pakistan and Iran, “as long as there is support from allies”. The preemption nonsense has gone too far. Playing a bully in negotiations is probably better than no negotiations, but it is still a tyrant pose.
The best evidence shows Iran has no nuclear weapons program, disbanded since at least 2003. This is from NEIA earlier this year and CIA reports up to a month ago. CIA estimates it would be 2015 before stockpiles of Uranium could be acquired for a “negligible” nuclear weapons program. Trumped up cause for war against Iran by Obama in the debate? It certainly seems that way.
If it is just posturing to gain votes, threats of war on another country are still violations of international law. Preemptive war is the ploy of tyrants and despots. That is a big negative.
Kil
| Obama isn't proposing socialized medicine as far as I can tell. |
Obama is using the foundation of Medicare and Medicaid for his program of universal health coverage. By their own definitions, (“this idea fits the broader definition of socialized medicine”)
I do see this definition causes issues and is considered derogatory, but those who find it derogatory are not being honest. The US is clearly embracing socialist government programs, so can we just accept that and move on to dissecting the programs for value and credibility? Yes/No?
Germany, France, Canada; just get past the definition as these countries have.
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filthy
| reasonable health should be a citizens right |
There is no doubt the government owes people a return on the money that was excised from them for whatever services they were meant to provide. Vets more so than average citizens too. War injured vets even higher amounts again. I have no problem with this.
Average citizen - Yes, you do have a right to health care, just as you have a right to food, shelter and property. However, you have no "right" to force others to provide these things for you - All "free" medical care is subsidized through taxes stolen from other people.
Get what you pay for, otherwise the system unsustainable. Remove the bureaucracy of government and your costs are more directly beneficial to the service provider.
A couple quotes from Bastiat, an economist of the early to mid 1800's.
“Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”
“People are beginning to realize that the apparatus of government is costly. But what they do not know is that the burden falls inevitably on them.”
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Dave, you have said much that is total sh!t.
“The hypocrisy is in your attack.”
Dave
Then by your admission, your argument is sincere. Amazing!
| I think you're a hypocrite for taking advantage of publicly funded projects while decrying public funding of projects |
Taxes are not optional, they are forced, extorted.
According to Dave, “I” am a hypocrite if I use any product resulting from extorted funds, while personaly objecting to extortion.
This is a completely asinine argument. Dave, make a case.
Dave claims I am “taking advantage” of publi |
| Edited by - Zeked on 09/28/2008 23:24:01 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 23:53:50 [Permalink]
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Zeked.....
For Christ's sake (figuratively, of course).....
| Playing a bully in negotiations is probably better than no negotiations, but it is still a tyrant pose.......Trumped up cause for war against Iran by Obama in the debate? It certainly seems that way.......If it is just posturing to gain votes, threats of war on another country are still violations of international law. Preemptive war is the ploy of tyrants and despots. That is a big negative...... |
Zeked, were you born yesterday? Last night, maybe? OF COURSE, it's a bunch of political posturing to get elected. Number One, No.1!, and NUMBER ONE!!!!;....THE MAN HAS TO GET ELECTED!!
This kind of calculated crap on the part of Obama hits a certain cretin mentality in the Great Undecided and probably swings them a little bit from the Great Military Leader, McCain, over to considering that Obama would also kick ass if necessary.
The fucker, our fucker - the only one we got - needs every god damn vote he can get! This one is going to be really close! WOULD YOU RATHER see McPalin sit in the White House? If your preposterous liberal idealism leads you to "I don't care", you're reducing yourself to the moron level of the hockey puck dads that are going to get up at 6 am on November 4, vote for McPalin, and go then Moose hunting after a worship service with their guns.
Come on, Zeked, if Obama was fucking Walter Mondale, he'd still be a better choice than six-star General McPalin to run this country and create a Brave New World of constant, unending war - war until the End Times; which are welcome IMMEDIATELY from the McPalin camp, when they can all go to Paradise and have Jeezus hang killing medals on their chests.
Come on, Obama is a standard-issue politician, a little to the left of center. McPalin are genuine nut-case fanatics, both a religious psychopath (Palin) ignorant as a dead moose, and a military psychopath (McCain) who insanely wants and needs to be Commander-In-Chief of the World! Come on!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 00:55:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by calebjones1234
Originally posted by filthy
Me, I'm for free health care for every citizen of this country for any condition including birth control and yes, abortion. You can call it "socialized" or put whatever lable you like on it, but reasonable health should be a citizens right.
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Who pays for what?
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I'm not sure I understand your context -- obviously, everyone who pays taxes pays for everything including the current neo-conservative delusions of "let the market decide" floating around. In the case of health insurance, the "market" is the insurance companies, which are anything but non-profit and would fight to the death against any sort of universal health care.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 02:17:34 [Permalink]
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Just came across this health care-related matter. It explains the situation much better than I could:
George Stephanopoulos followed up on Friday night and asked John McCain a little bit about his health care plan this morning. Specifically, he wanted to know if it's true McCain plans to tax your health care benefits at work as if they're salary. Not only is it true - very, very true - but you're not getting the full story. McCain says he'll give you a $2500/$5000 (individual/family) tax credit to go out and buy your own insurance instead. Sounds great, but do you know how much insurance costs these days?
Overall, premiums for family coverage increased to $12,680 and premiums for single coverage increased to $4,704, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust. Employers pick up, on average, about three-quarters of that cost. |
McCain's turning into what we dirty, old hippies used to call a "space shot." Or perhaps he was one all along, I dunno. But one thing I do know is that we were drunk & stupid enough to give Bush sufficient votes that the Supreme Court could install that scumbag in office, so don't count the space shot out yet.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 06:31:08 [Permalink]
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| Well once Palin plays the 'poor persecuted me' card at the VP debate, who knows what will happen. I predict she will break down in tears, intentionally. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Debate!
