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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  14:07:53  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's assume that McCain wins the upcoming election. If McCain dies after the Electoral college votes on December 20th, he has become president elect and therefore Palin becomes president for the full 4 year term as is dictated by the 20th amendment.

However, what if McCain dies between November 4th and December 20th? I can't seem to find any information on what would happen. I could certainly see him having a heart attack after being announced the winner. Do McCain's electoral votes go to a Palin-??? ticket? An emergency election? Or do the votes just disappear?

And what if McCain dies in a timely manner before the election? Let's say 4 days ahead. This is not enough time to change the ticket nationwide. Even if there is enough time, would the election be postponed?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov

Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  14:22:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky

Let's assume that McCain wins the upcoming election. If McCain dies after the Electoral college votes on December 20th, he has become president elect and therefore Palin becomes president for the full 4 year term as is dictated by the 20th amendment.

However, what if McCain dies between November 4th and December 20th? I can't seem to find any information on what would happen. I could certainly see him having a heart attack after being announced the winner. Do McCain's electoral votes go to a Palin-??? ticket? An emergency election? Or do the votes just disappear?

And what if McCain dies in a timely manner before the election? Let's say 4 days ahead. This is not enough time to change the ticket nationwide. Even if there is enough time, would the election be postponed?


First scenario

Two things would happen.

1) Palin would be sworn in as President
2) I would seriously consider moving to Canada

Second scenario

McCain stays on the ballot. Palin is made President if McCain won. Remember when Ashcroft was running against Callahan? Callahan's plane wrecked before the election killing him instantly. Ashcroft lost to a dead man.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  16:30:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

2) I would seriously consider moving to Canada


Everyone seems to think that is a no brainer solution. As an US natural citizen who has been an immigrant for 15 years, and has been looking at a move to canada for 2 or more, let me tell you, its not that easy.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  16:53:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Second scenario

McCain stays on the ballot. Palin is made President if McCain won. Remember when Ashcroft was running against Callahan? Callahan's plane wrecked before the election killing him instantly. Ashcroft lost to a dead man.
But that was a state thing. If I recall correctly, the MO state law basically had a plan in place, and the governor would chose the senator to fill the position. After Governor Carnahan (not Callahan) died, the Lt. Governor was sworn in, and announced that he'd appoint Carnahan's wife to the position should Carnahan win the election. Which he did. (The wiki explains.)

But Ricky raises a good point. Suppose McCain dies in the next three weeks. Or hell, suppose Obama dies in a plane crash. Then what? For the VP candidates, my guess is that it's pretty simple. But not for the top spot on the ticket.

Good question, but I have no good answer.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  17:39:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The answer is easy, actually.

The voters actually elect delegates to the Electoral College. The delegates are supposed to vote for (in this example) McCain, but don't actually have to, even if McCain lives. The delegates pledge to vote for McCain (before the general election, even), but if McCain croaks, that pledge is obviously void.

So it's quite possible that if McCain dies, the next President could be Obama. Or Palin. Or Rove. Or Cheney. Or Kent Hovind. Whoever could convince the McCain-pledged delegates to vote for them instead, in a block.

Assume McCain kicks the bucket on November 10th. A month of heavy politicking ensues, with McCain-pledged delegates being pushed towards Palin and Guliani and Romney, with all sorts of in-fighting and bitterness. The Electoral College convenes, votes are cast, and nobody gets 270 votes. The House of Representatives would then pick the President (and possibly the Senate picks the VP), and since Congress is Democrat now, Obama gets sworn in in January (even if Congressional Democrats get sandbagged in the elections).

And again, all that is possible even if McCain lives and wins, because the delegates aren't legally obligated to vote for McCain, but can vote for anyone who is eligible to be President.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  18:40:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't some states have laws that say that a delegate has to vote for whomever they've pledged for? Or was that a bunch of talk that never actually came to pass?
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Siberia
SFN Addict

Brazil
2322 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  18:42:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Siberia's Homepage  Send Siberia an AOL message  Send Siberia a Yahoo! Message Send Siberia a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

[...] Or Kent Hovind.

The world shudders at the thought.

"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa

"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2008 :  21:55:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Don't some states have laws that say that a delegate has to vote for whomever they've pledged for?
Well, I've never heard of any such laws, though I can't imagine that people haven't thought about it.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2008 :  08:58:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, so how about this:

On December 20th, an hour or so before the Electoral College meets, McCain dies. The word spreads, but not fast enough. The Electoral College meets, and votes McCain president thinking that he is still alive. Is this allowed? Can the Electoral College vote for a dead person? Is it written that to be eligible for president, one must be alive?

If the answer to that is "yes", couldn't that happen if McCain dies any period of time before the Electoral College votes? And if the answer is "no", then what happens to the vote? Must the Electoral College meet again?

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2008 :  09:16:30   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by me

Well, I've never heard of any such laws, though I can't imagine that people haven't thought about it.
I should have just kept reading Wikipedia until I got to Faithless Electors.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2008 :  19:52:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Dave's link:

(1) 2004 election: A Minnesota elector, pledged for Democrats John Kerry and John Edwards, cast his or her presidential vote for John Ewards [sic], apparently accidentally. (All of Minnesota's electors cast their vice presidential ballots for John Edwards.)


That's rather hilarious.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2008 :  07:06:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by chefcrsh

Originally posted by Valiant Dancer

2) I would seriously consider moving to Canada


Everyone seems to think that is a no brainer solution. As an US natural citizen who has been an immigrant for 15 years, and has been looking at a move to canada for 2 or more, let me tell you, its not that easy.


I'm sure it isn't.

However, I could possibly make an appeal based on an asylum claim for religious persecution.

Yes, Palin is that big of a threat.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular

USA
609 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2008 :  06:37:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Original_Intent a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The electors are chosen by states. The states are not required to choose them in any particular way. Most states go about it by popular vote. When Carter beat Ford, one guy in Washington cast his ballot for Regan.

In Kentucky, their was a push for a constitutional amendment to require the casting of ballots based on who won in any particular district.

I would love to see an entirely new process of picking electors, where anyone who can pass a detailed civics and history exam can be chosen to be an elector. I wonder how many of the current electors could pass such a test.

The Circus of Carnage... because you should be able to deal with politicians like you do pissant noobs.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2008 :  09:37:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Original_Intent

I would love to see an entirely new process of picking electors...
Why bother? Why not change the whole system around? Ask voters for their first, second and third choices for Prez, base the winner directly on the popular vote, and have a run-off in case of a tie. Gives the power back to the people, forces candidates to campaign everywhere and also gives third-party candidates a real shot.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2008 :  10:31:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would the results be totally proportional?
Or would it still be who wins the most states?

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
25975 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2008 :  11:59:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Would the results be totally proportional?
Or would it still be who wins the most states?
Nah, total of the popular vote.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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