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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2008 : 05:53:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
[quote]Originally posted by bngbuck
Powell is a fine man who made a mistake. Fine. There are lots of fine people in prison who make mistakes. They are not being considered for cabinet positions.
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Powell had to choose between the integrity of following orders like a good soldier and the integrity of rejecting something you know is gravely wrong. And he forgot that as Secretary of State he had become a civilian. His reward for loyalty to GW, for throwing away his credibility forever with that presentation of lies and exaggerations to the UN, was to be comletely marginalized in the administration.
I lost a LOT of respect for him when he did that. I think he knew he was propagandizing, that GW was going to war no matter what, that the war was wrong and a huge mistake for America. And he did it anyway. I don't see any reason to forgive that. |
-Chaloobi
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:22:59 [Permalink]
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Why are we all so sure that Powell was in a position to know that the intel was bad? The CIA and the military were reporting to Rumsfield and Cheney, as I understand it. They wanted Powell out of that loop because they knew he wasn't "one of them".
I agree that he shouldn't have gone before the UN if he thought the war was bad neocon policy. That was his big mistake because he believed that the neocon hawks and the Bush doctrine were fundamentally wrong. George Tennant advised him and we now know that Tennant was lying through his teeth because Tennant too was being told what his intel should show. Unlike Powell, I am convinced that Tennant absolutely knew he was lying. But like Stevenson before him, did Powell know that he was lying? He says now that he saw what they showed him and believed the intel at the time. He says he was unaware of how deeply flawed it was and regrets his place in pushing forward an agenda that he didn't agree with. Really, I don't know what to make of how Powell made is decision to go to the UN. But sitting here, it just seems way too easy to come to conclusions about his motive. Did he forget that it wasn't his job to be the good solder anymore? Did he think that he would lose whatever sway he had on Bush if he had walked? Was he a coward? I just don't know.
I'm angry that he made his presentation to the UN too. But I'm not willing to go out on a limb and pretend that I know what his motives were. I only know that it was a mistake, which he now freely admits, based on the bad intelligence that he believed at the time.
And Gorgo, I have heard some of Manson's songs, and they suck. So yes, he deserves to be behind bars. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 08:57:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Really, I don't know what to make of how Powell made is decision to go to the UN. But sitting here, it just seems way too easy to come to conclusions about his motive. Did he forget that it wasn't his job to be the good solder anymore? Did he think that he would lose whatever sway he had on Bush if he had walked? Was he a coward? I just don't know.
I'm angry that he made his presentation to the UN too. But I'm not willing to go out on a limb and pretend that I know what his motives were. I only know that it was a mistake, which he now freely admits, based on the bad intelligence that he believed at the time.
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Why does motive matter? He knew what he was presenting was deeply flawed and he felt invading Iraq was a grave mistake, yet he put his credibility on the line to promote it to the world. That's enough.
It's like the whole neo-con cabal that plannned the war. Their motives for invading Iraq were nothing but lofty and optimistic. Their hearts were in the right place: take down a bad guy, build up a free capitalistic society, demonstrate to all the other people in the region the joys of liberal capitalism, seed lasting peace and propserity in the middle-east, radical Islam fades, and the entire world benefits. I get it. They meant well. But they were hopelessly reckless, closed minded, naive and stupid about these plans. Regardless of motive they should all be put on trial, and Powell with them for the role he played. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 10/21/2008 08:57:55 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 09:18:17 [Permalink]
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It's like the whole neo-con cabal that plannned the war. Their motives for invading Iraq were nothing but lofty and optimistic.
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No reason to think that, but I agree that we need some kind of reasonable trial for all these people, if that were possible. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/21/2008 09:23:08 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 09:40:49 [Permalink]
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Kil asked:
| Why are we all so sure that Powell was in a position to know that the intel was bad? |
The State Dept has its own intel branch, and own analysts. Powel, and his deputy, are both on the record (long after the fact, of course) saying they had doubts about the data used in the UN speech BEFORE he gave the speech.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:07:38 [Permalink]
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Not to mention... most of the world knew it was BS.
I was in GB at the time and I remember the (very) vast majority of people saying that the claims were fakes.
Of course, CNN and Fox never reported that and give it a propagandist spin, so it was to be expected for the average citizen to have been fooled at the time.
But Powell definitely had ways to know better.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 10:21:04 [Permalink]
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Mooner.....
| Powell acted properly as a military officer, making his objection to his superiors, then marching as ordered. Unfortunately, Powell was no longer a military officer at the time, but Secretary of State. |
Absolutely right! Powell's devotion to military discipline and protocol overrode his intelligence, common sense, and sense of right and wrong! "Their's not to reason why, their's but to do or die!"
Powell never really became a civilian executive of the government with the welfare of the United States as his first priority, he was following the orders of the Commander-in-chief, as he properly did back when he was a high ranking General.
I suspect he was also desperately covering his own ass, political and otherwise, in a time when the neocons ruled!
A very flawed man, but no more or less venal than most politicians, regardless of party! The system requires venality, selling out - regardless of party.
Politics always reduces principle to propriety - and ultimately to expedience!
Powell, however, has skills and experience and judgment that will be very useful to Obama, and I'm taking on Dude's money that there's "no way"! His endorsement, once it appeared obvious that Obama was very likely to win, was a prelude to an appointment in the new administration.
Yeah, I think he would have endorsed old friend McCain if it had looked like he was winning. And, yeah, I think that it was arranged in advance with both of them (in extreme privacy, of course)
But, of course, although I'm an amateur skeptic, I'm a professional cynic!
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General Powell does the right thing!
