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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2008 : 15:50:25 [Permalink]
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Ricky.....
If it was an Escalade, Q works for GM and that proves He's a dumb ass!
Lousiest car I ever owned and I'll never have another one!
Care package of the last ten issues of Motor Trend and a year's worth of iron supplements on the way. Get to work! |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2008 : 16:37:01 [Permalink]
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Hawks.....
Hell, if the dumb fucker (God) made you believe in him, he'd be a real hypocrite - violating his own doctrine of free will! It's supposed to be some kind of a big deal with Christians that you have the right to not believe. You'll go to hell, of course, but it would be your choice! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/26/2008 : 17:01:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Hawks.....
Hell, if the dumb fucker (God) made you believe in him, he'd be a real hypocrite - violating his own doctrine of free will! It's supposed to be some kind of a big deal with Christians that you have the right to not believe. You'll go to hell, of course, but it would be your choice!
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Yes, he certainly has a way of dodging responsibility, doesn't he? For even the most vicious and vicarious acts of destruction it's, "Y'all made me do that!"
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/27/2008 11:20:58 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 10:01:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
The existence of God? Especially the God of the Bible or Koran. |
That God could make you know it exists beyond doubt merely by wanting you to. And the other side of the coin is that outside it allowing it, you could never prove it's existance. Which means that in regards to that god, the requirement of faith over certainty means 1 of 2 things:
A. It's not there.
B. It doesn't want us to be certain.
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic.  |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 11:19:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic. |
It's worse than that.
Anyone who thinks that certain scientific discoveries prove the existence of God destroy my free will. Proof denies faith. So if someone presents me with evidence that inarguably points to the existence of God, they suck away my free will and damn me to Hell because I won't be able to repent in the split-second it'll take to go from doubt to sudden-realization-of-the-Truth.
In other words, if the Bible is true, then people who think science should or already does prove God are actively seeking my (and other unrepentant peoples') damnation. And because they think the Bible is true, they should be considered to be working with malice aforethought, gleefully seeking my (and others') eternal torture. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Varius
New Member
9 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 11:39:38 [Permalink]
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Interesting question to say the least. Im still new to the forum and I have to give my hat off to Dave who does help develop critical thinking in all of his post.
On the existance of God i will throw this out for discussion from one of the philosohers who lived back in the day since this is what the general question seems to state from what I have read.
It seems that everything we see in the world can be explained by other causes without assuming that God exist, because natural things are explained by natural causes, while those that are done for a purpose are the products of human reason and will. Therefore there is no need to suppose that God exist.
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:04:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Sophistry is a bitch and makes all absolute certainty suspect. Or so The Architect told me when I reached The Source.
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So you find my reasoning confusing or illogical?
You did not address the question.
Is there an argument or even possible evidence to convince you of the existence of God? I have already answered that question.....for me. A natural explanation....no matter how unlikely, would trump a supernatural explanation.
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Naturally as I am a human, I'm sure there's something that could be done to me to convince me beyond ANY doubt that anything is true. If I were in my right mind however I wouldnt give a 100% to anything, I'd probably assume that I'd been slipped some mandrake root first and work my way through Schizophernia and so on. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:06:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chaloobi
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic. |
It's worse than that.
Anyone who thinks that certain scientific discoveries prove the existence of God destroy my free will. Proof denies faith. So if someone presents me with evidence that inarguably points to the existence of God, they suck away my free will and damn me to Hell because I won't be able to repent in the split-second it'll take to go from doubt to sudden-realization-of-the-Truth.
In other words, if the Bible is true, then people who think science should or already does prove God are actively seeking my (and other unrepentant peoples') damnation. And because they think the Bible is true, they should be considered to be working with malice aforethought, gleefully seeking my (and others') eternal torture.
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It's worse than that (ok; maybe not).
But, if God does not want us to be certain... and they still find think they have found a proof... they implicitly themselves smarter than God.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:10:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic. |
Don't forget to expand this to all laws and judgement of any kind... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:35:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
[quote]Originally posted by chaloobi
It's worse than that.
Anyone who thinks that certain scientific discoveries prove the existence of God destroy my free will. Proof denies faith. So if someone presents me with evidence that inarguably points to the existence of God, they suck away my free will and damn me to Hell because I won't be able to repent in the split-second it'll take to go from doubt to sudden-realization-of-the-Truth.
In other words, if the Bible is true, then people who think science should or already does prove God are actively seeking my (and other unrepentant peoples') damnation. And because they think the Bible is true, they should be considered to be working with malice aforethought, gleefully seeking my (and others') eternal torture.
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One Nut Shell = people who seek to prove god's existance in any way, are also, wittingly or not, seeking to destroy god's plan. (We're talking abrahamic god's here, of course.)
Another Nut Shell = Working to take away the free will god has painstakingly sought to preserve with faith is a grievous sin of pride.
A Curve Ball: = (Anything can be rationalized to fit one's world view) This is all part of god's plan. That is, god keeps us ignorant and free until we learn enough to prove it's existance. When that happens, all faith and free will ends, and folks, let the judgement begin!
We have to stop them.  |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:42:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by chaloobi
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic. |
It's worse than that.
Anyone who thinks that certain scientific discoveries prove the existence of God destroy my free will. Proof denies faith. So if someone presents me with evidence that inarguably points to the existence of God, they suck away my free will and damn me to Hell because I won't be able to repent in the split-second it'll take to go from doubt to sudden-realization-of-the-Truth.
In other words, if the Bible is true, then people who think science should or already does prove God are actively seeking my (and other unrepentant peoples') damnation. And because they think the Bible is true, they should be considered to be working with malice aforethought, gleefully seeking my (and others') eternal torture.
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It's worse than that (ok; maybe not).
But, if God does not want us to be certain... and they still find think they have found a proof... they implicitly themselves smarter than God.
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That's an interesting hair to splice. Many people claim their faith has made them absolutely certain that god exists. Are they attempting to subvert god's plan for free will? Clearly if one supports legislation based on god's moral laws they are actively working to subvert god's will, but what if they just go around braying about how their faith leaves them no doubt? Is that evil? |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 12:49:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Originally posted by chaloobi
"A" is a moot point. "B" immediately leads to "why?" The answer to that is often "To preserve free will" which leads to the conlcusion that anyone who supports a government enforced ban on something like abortion or gay marriage based on a religous premise is going to hell. And that is ironic. |
Don't forget to expand this to all laws and judgement of any kind...
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I don't extend this argument to secular law. If you make this argument to a believer they will say "then laws against murder are against god's will!" But not so. Laws can be put into two groups:
#1. Those that are necessary for a functioning secular society.
#2. Those that are not.
Prohibitions against theft and murder are key to any human society whether god's there or not. But prohibitions against homosexual marriage or abortion are not necessary, as history has shown us. |
-Chaloobi
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2008 : 21:19:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Anyone who thinks that certain scientific discoveries prove the existence of God destroy my free will. Proof denies faith. So if someone presents me with evidence that inarguably points to the existence of God, they suck away my free will and damn me to Hell because I won't be able to repent in the split-second it'll take to go from doubt to sudden-realization-of-the-Truth. |
Why not just will yourself and reject any such evidence in particular and science in general? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2008 : 07:05:35 [Permalink]
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Adam and Eve were absolutely certain of god's existence, as they had direct contact with him. Adam and Eve disobeyed god, proving they had free will. Ergo, knowledge of god's existence does not impinge upon free will.
While the "god can't show himself or we'd lose our free will" argument is a popular apologetic, it's easy to prove false and unbiblical. Even Peter, Jesus' (and therefore god's) closest apostle, rejected Christ three times. So this whole business about losing free will is a non-starter. God could make himself known without damaging anything. As many here have pointed out, somehow Christians who are 100% convinced of god's existence fail to see the irony when they offer this apologetic with a straight face.
But it's amusing to see that even if we do accept this flimsy apologetic, it creates an entirely new set of problems for believers. Man, Christians just don't seem very good at thinking things all the way through, do they? They get an answer and immediately accept it and the thinking process just stops. That's what I found when questioning my teachers in Catholic school. They have an answer for everything, but just one. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, you must resort to faith.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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What would it take to prove…
