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oldcastle
New Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 11/01/2008 : 09:45:13
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Hi everyone,
First I would like to say that I am glad to be part of this community.
Now I have a question.
Unfortunately people close to me, believe in all this bullshit about fortune teller, psychics, medium...etc. I told to this person that I can uncover this fortune teller. So I would like to know some tips to help me to expose that fraud.
Best,
Oldcaste.
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 10:07:14 [Permalink]
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| Tell the suspected fraud to take the Million dollar challenge. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 10:11:04 [Permalink]
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Hi OC, and welcome to SFN.
I'm sure you'll get lots of ideas here-- though it may help to tell us more about the background. What sort of fortune-telling does this person do? Do you know the teller? Is the person you promised willing to let go of a believe in such things if your exposure is successful? Have you established what constitutes success?
My feeling is that regardless of what you do, if a person wants to believe in something, she or he will. Indeed, fortune-tellers succeed often by predicting vague or fuzzy things and then trying to make any old event fit the prediction. E.g. You're told that something bad will happen to a female in the family at some point in the future. Six months later, you have to put down you nine-year-old female cat. Lo and behold, the prediction holds true! Just as would your six-year-old daughter spraining her ankle the day after the fortune-telling. Just as would... well, you get the idea.
Anyhow, one concern I have is setting out to expose this fortune-teller in some sort of publicly-humiliating way. It's one thing to tell your friend "see, that fortune-teller was a fraud" and another thing to say to the fortune-teller's face "you're a fraud." Just seems like it has to potential to cause undue trouble. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 10:24:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by oldcastle
Hi everyone,
First I would like to say that I am glad to be part of this community.
Now I have a question.
Unfortunately people close to me, believe in all this bullshit about fortune teller, psychics, medium...etc. I told to this person that I can uncover this fortune teller. So I would like to know some tips to help me to expose that fraud.
Best,
Oldcaste.
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Welcome to SFN Oldcastle!
Most psychics use a method called cold reading. They are observant. They make general statements that will fit almost anyone. And they play a game of 20 questions, getting the person being read to supply them their hits.
I have foiled several psychics by not answering their questions, and by not responding to their guesses. I just stare back. When pressed I tell them that I have no particular question that I am seeking an answer to and that I was hoping to learn something about myself if possible, still refusing to answer their questions about anything specific that I want to know.
What I usually get from that are generalized statements that almost anyone would agree to. Things like; "You are very creative and yet you sometimes feel like people don't understand you." Stuff like that.
Go to the psychic, and just stare back. Give as little away about yourself as possible. Most psychics will let you record the reading, so you can go back over it and see if there was anything said that could be legitimately considered something only someone psychic could know about you.
Add up the hits and misses. If, for example, if you are wearing a wedding ring, the psychic might say something general or even specific about your marriage. A wedding ring is good because the psychic will often assume that your marriage is fine and might say something about that, simply because you didn't ask about how your marriage is going. They may take a shot and have roughly a 50/50 chance of being correct if they say something about the state of your marrage. A guess is hardly proof of psychic ability even if the observation is correct.
On thing you can do is put on a wedding ring even if your not married and see if the psychic bites. Or take off your wedding ring, leaving a band of lighter skin on your ring finger which might mean you just got divorced or your marriage is in trouble. False clues are great. Remember that a good cold reader is looking for clues.
Or dress in a way that you usually don't dress, again, to see of the psychic bites.
Remember to record, so you can show your friend exactly what went down... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 10:25:59 [Permalink]
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Welcome, oldcastle!
Could you tell us more of what you are hoping to accomplish, & what your general plan is?
Are you aiming to try to convince one friend (or, one at a time) that a fortune teller can't actually tell fortunes (can't predict the future)?
Would you be going to a fortune teller with a friend, & paying money to have that person perform ("tell fortunes") - or are you thinking of trying to use persuasive arguments, without face-to-face contact w/ one or more fortune tellers?
If this is your general plan, here's what I would suggest:
Get a sense of what evidence your friend would find convincing in debunking a fortune teller. (Less chance of success if there is nothing that would convince him or her.)
Would this friend be able to "see through" very vague pronouncements by a fortune teller? Would he/she find the inability of the fortune teller to know current & past information accurately to be compelling? (Since a future fortune could potentially come true, or not, at any time in the future...sort of like a prayer.)
If situation seems amenable to experimentation, if your friend could be convinced by seeing a fortune teller get alot of current/past factual information about each of you wrong, then I'd suggest going with your friend to a fortune teller, perhaps someone of his/her choosing, BUT make sure that each of you are wearing "clues" which suggest things about you which aren't true.
For example: If you're not married, wear a gold band on your ring finger. If you are married, take off your wedding ring.
If you're not well off, dress up nicely to make it look like you are. If you are well off, dress down, in secondhand clothes. If you usually are nicely groomed, go "wild" - don't shave, whatever. Etc.
If you're not Christian, wear a crucifix (a subtle one). If you are Christian, wear a symbol of another faith. Etc.
You and your friend can act like you're a couple, if you're not really. Or, you can act like you can barely stand each other & are a married couple.
Don't SAY anything that's a lie, just wear clues & act in ways which are different from your usual. You're trying to get the fortune teller to read you wrong in her/his cold reading, in a way your friend will recognize means she/he doesn't actually have any psychic powers.
Then, during the reading, whenever the fortune teller suggests anything which might be true for you, give noncommittal responses which could be interpreted as agreeing: "Hmmm?" "Yes?" "Go on.." or raise your eyebrows like you're amazed. Whether or not any of it is true.
Try to get the fortune teller to make fairly specific predictions, not "you will have a good year" but "you will leave your spouse" kind of thing.
Hope all that makes sense. Good luck. Have fun!
[Edited to add: duplication of advice, cross-posted w/ others] |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 11/01/2008 10:27:19 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 11:25:06 [Permalink]
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Another approach would be to give someone else a psychic reading yourself. Learn a few of the tricks and try it out on some people at a party one night. Perhaps if your friend sees how easy it is to appear "psychic" they'll be less inclined to buy into it. Then again, you also run the risk of convincing them that you are psychic. But people like that are probably hopeless cases anyway.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/01/2008 11:25:28 |
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oldcastle
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 11:33:29 [Permalink]
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Hi people.. thanks for all the answers...
Yes.. my friend ..always go to a fortune teller... and she invited me to go...
I now about cold reading .. i am reading a lot about this :-) :-)
I know the fortune teller will read (scan) me ... and say generic things... I said to my friend that we can pretend be a couple...she accepted... but i want to have a plan B, because my friend can unconscious showed that we aren't a couple. So, my plan is divide in two parts. A) pretend be a person that I am not. B) make questions that the fortune teller can not answer.. or get without exit :-) :-)
thanks
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| Edited by - oldcastle on 11/01/2008 11:35:35 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 11:51:56 [Permalink]
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You can also try to trick the 'psychic'; I guess. Although, not through active lies -as your friend might reason that your lies tricked her powers, merely offering false leads.
I you are single; wear a ring on your wedding ring's finger.
If you have a good job; you might try setting up the appointment during normal work hours; she might assume that you don't have a job; especially if you dress down.
You can also ask about your sister (if you don't have one) and see the psychic make up long and superficially detailed stories about this non-existant person... although it might be too close from a lie for your friend to accept it.
Whatever your plan is; maybe you should check it with your friend before hands. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 12:35:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Whatever your plan is; maybe you should check it with your friend before hands. |
Agreed. Cuneiformist has asked the most important question in this thread: "Have you established what constitutes success?"
You must work out with your friend beforehand what she would take as proof of your success. If you don't, you are leaving the door open for your friend to come up with ad hoc excuses about why your efforts didn't account for everything. As much as possible, the criteria should be things which are objective and quantifiable. For instance, record the session, then together add up the psychics "hits" and "misses." Determine ahead of time what constitutes a hit (can't be overly vague) and a good ratio (let's say a true psychic must be better than a 50% hit rate). These sort of hard rules in the beginning will make it harder for your friend to make excuses later.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/01/2008 12:35:37 |
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oldcastle
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 13:10:53 [Permalink]
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Ok.. I will talk very well with my friend before.
I was thinking... I can't just stare...or be so "cold".. because the psychic can use a vague excuse to say anything about me (or avoid me).... or say somethings like "i can't see things clear..." "something is avoid me to see your future" or... "i just see a dark cloud.." :-) :-) .
I think pretend a situation that doesn't exist... is the best way to show this fraud.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 14:03:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by oldcastle
Ok.. I will talk very well with my friend before.
I was thinking... I can't just stare...or be so "cold".. because the psychic can use a vague excuse to say anything about me (or avoid me).... or say somethings like "i can't see things clear..." "something is avoid me to see your future" or... "i just see a dark cloud.." :-) :-) .
I think pretend a situation that doesn't exist... is the best way to show this fraud.
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Be cordial. Just don't give away any specifics. What I do is to ask the psychic to say anything about me that comes to mind, but that I don't really have anything specific that I want to know about. I might say "hmmmmmm" or "really" but I try not to give up too much.
If you call the psychic on a lack of hits, the psychic will say that you were blocking. But hey, why should you have to provide someone with supernatural powers answers to their questions? Why is the psychic even asking if he/she can really read your mind? Saying you were blocking is the out for a scam artist and not of someone who really can read minds or can see the future.
Design your test for your situation. I have always gone it alone...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 15:49:49 [Permalink]
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Hi Oldcastle and welcome!
May I ask if your friend is visiting a single psychic or any at random? And are these "readings" done at her place or the psychic's?
The reason I ask is that in the psychic's place, the client will initally feel a little insecure and the psychic will go to some lengths to reassure him/her. This will instill confidence and a feeling of finding an understanding friend. In other words, the client will be thrown off-guard and might be easily persuaded to tell the psychic anything the fraud wants to know. And also, the "office" is likely to be heavily wired.
Never forget, these scumbags make their livings doing this and repeat business is even more appreciated than in an ordinary enterprise. A few recordings, audio & vidio, make a handy reference. Just because they are unscupulous does not mean that they are not smart. There is also the very real possibility of extortion of a long-term client who has divulged too much.
Be very careful with this person.
How would I deal with it? At a some point in the "reading," having garnered a bit of unintended information myself from it, as well as having done a little prior research on the psychic in question, I'd initiate a direct confrontation -- call the skank out. Of course, in your case, that might turn your friend off, so again, care must be taken.
I wish you all luck -- please do keep us up to date on it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/01/2008 15:52:15 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 16:17:03 [Permalink]
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One last thing to keep in mind is that, if your friend spend that much time and money with this psychic, it might be that she wants to believe. It makes her feel better and reassure her.
In this situation, nothing you can do and say will ever make it believe you. She might change her mind, of course, but it will mainly her evolving and no longer needing (or feeling to need) this crutch rather than you actually convincing her (although, what you might say might push her over the hedge or give her an 'excuse' to admit her change of viewpoint to herself).
So; best of luck in your fight to bring spread enlightenment... but don't rise your hopes up too much. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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oldcastle
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 18:52:21 [Permalink]
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thanks everybody..
Just one more question.
Can you list here all the techniques used for a psychic or fortune teller during a session ? Like... I know they use cold reading so, are there more techniques ? I would like to study. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2008 : 19:54:30 [Permalink]
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Well, there's always "hot" reading, where the psychic knows personal information about the client before they ever do the reading. Sylvia Brown, if I recall correctly, actually has her clients submit a pre-reading questionnaire. Like meeting a receptionist at the doctor's office. "And what can Sylvia help you with today?" So you tell them why you need the reading, worried about losing your job say, and then you actually sit down for the session where *surprise!* she's tailored the reading to meet your personal needs. Sometimes if you book an appointment ahead of time they will even try to research you online. It's amazing how much you can learn about a person through their Myspace page, for instance. So, just be aware when some psychic reveals knowledge about some personal detail about your life, they may have learn it through some means other than ESP or psychic powers.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Tips to catch a fraud
