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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
 Posted - 12/12/2008 : 06:08:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Can an atheist group really legally discriminate on the basis of religion? |
Under the law, atheism is considered a religion. That is, any legal protection or privileges provided to religious groups automatically extend to atheistic groups as well.
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Whew! Good. |
Wow.
I guess "bald" is legally a hair color, then.
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And if special legal protections applied to differing hair colors, you would want bald to be considered a hair color in the eyes of the law. At least I would, since I'm bald.
But it's less a contradiction than you think. Atheism has simply been recognized as being in the same legal "category" as religion. Meaning for example that the right to religious freedom, which entails the personal right to ascribe to whichever religion one's conscience dictates, must also include the right to ascribe to none. That's a good thing, otherwise religious groups could persecute atheist groups on the basis that we have no constitutional right to hold no religion. In fact, I've actually heard some idiot Christians try to argue just that.
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Yeah! I´ve heard a woman scream: "Freedom of religion it´s not freedom from religion!"
She was trying to uphold that in the US people had a right to ascribe to a religion but not to atheism! Weeeeeeeird!
Cheers! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2008 : 23:19:41 [Permalink]
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Not certain, but the Boy Scouts do use military facilities for overnight camping and meetings. Part of the controversy out at Camp Pendleton was that the troop was not specific to the base families. That's been several years ago.
The military does recognize atheism, even if it's virtually impossible to get it put on your dog tags. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 11:57:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Trish
The military does recognize atheism, even if it's virtually impossible to get it put on your dog tags. |
Except there are no atheist Chaplains. There is a commissioned corps of military officers that some people are excluded from because of their religious beliefs. Isn't that religious discrimination? |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 12:16:21 [Permalink]
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That is quite an interesting point that you are introducing.
What are the religion of the various chaplains in the US military? Are they all some kind of Christian denominations or is there some Muslim chaplains running around? How do the troops react? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 15:20:25 [Permalink]
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Trish, it's good to see you back again!
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 12/13/2008 15:20:44 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 16:00:24 [Permalink]
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| From what I read on Wikipedia; you could in theory have humanists chaplain; provided that they are endorsed by a humanist 'church'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 17:25:59 [Permalink]
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Simon, no Humanist chaplains such as myself who are certified by the Humanist Society are barred from becoming employed military chaplains because we thus far have refused to be categorized as a "faith group." We may, however, claim that status because of requests from atheists in the military - such as who are members of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. Currently the Humanist Society is considering this dilemma.
Basically Boron10 has it right: | Except there are no atheist Chaplains. There is a commissioned corps of military officers that some people are excluded from because of their religious beliefs. Isn't that religious discrimination? |
Yes, it is religious discrimination, so long as you take "freedom of religion" to include the choice of having no religion that is based on belief in the supernatural.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 12/13/2008 17:26:19 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2008 : 19:24:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by Trish
The military does recognize atheism, even if it's virtually impossible to get it put on your dog tags. |
Except there are no atheist Chaplains. There is a commissioned corps of military officers that some people are excluded from because of their religious beliefs. Isn't that religious discrimination?
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True enough. Though I do recall that the Humanist Society was trying to get together a group that could be 'atheist chaplains'. Basically psychologists that military folks could talk to with out that black mark that seeking psych help seems to leave on your record that the chaplain does not. I remember actually talking to someone at atheists International about it. She pinned me because she knew I had been in the military. Though I will admit to having spent a considerable amount of time talking to the Protestant Commander that didn't seem to mind that I was an atheist. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Why atheists care about fighting religion
