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 Rick Warren to do invocation on January 20th?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13463 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  13:34:57  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Obama: Choice of Warren reflects diversity of ideas

(CNN) -- President-elect Barack Obama on Thursday defended his pick of evangelical pastor Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration next month as one of "a wide range of viewpoints that are presented."
President-elect Barack Obama has chosen pastor Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration.

President-elect Barack Obama has chosen pastor Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inauguration.

"And that's how it should be, because that's what America is about," Obama said responding to a question at a news conference about his and Warren's differences on social issues. "That's part of the magic of this country is that we are diverse and noisy and opinionated."

Liberal groups and gay rights proponents had criticized the president-elect on Wednesday for choosing Warren, who opposes same-sex marriage and abortion rights.

Those socially conservative stances put him at odds with many in Obama's Democratic Party, especially the party's most liberal wing.

"[It's] shrewd politics, but if anyone is under any illusion that Obama is interested in advancing gay equality, they should probably sober up now," Andrew Sullivan wrote on the Atlantic Web site Wednesday.


I think this choice is a big mistake. I understand the diversity of ideas thing, but couldn't he have found someone who isn't a bigot?

Warren, a creationist, believes that homosexuality disproves evolution; he told CNN's Larry King in 2005, "If Darwin was right, which is survival of the fittest then homosexuality would be a recessive gene because it doesn't reproduce and you would think that over thousands of years that homosexuality would work itself out of the gene pool."

Warren protests that he's not a homophobe; it's just that two dudes marrying, in his mind, is indistinguishable from an adult marrying a child, a brother marrying his sister, or polygamy. He thinks his AIDS relief efforts represent an elevated form of Christianity over those non-evangelical do-gooders whom he compares to "Marxists" because they're more interested in good works than salvation. The rejection of the "social justice" gospel in favor of the salvation-focused evangelicalism that has come to dominate the definition of "Christian" lies at the heart of the religious right agenda to marginalize liberalism and harness its political power.


Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project

Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  14:35:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the quote about gay gene... Weird. I thought that is was recessive genes that carried unexpressed traits to offspring, and recessiveness has nothing to do with reproducing at all.
If there was such a (simple) thing as a gay-gene, then a mom or a dad could pass it on to the child, but without it being expressed. All children could then by carrying it without being gay.

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  14:38:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On Topic:

I don't give a sh*t who does the invocation. The important part is that the people Obama will be relying on to help govern the country are sane, honest, smart people selected for their ability to do a good work in whatever capacity they serve.

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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1265 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  14:48:42   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

On Topic:

I don't give a sh*t who does the invocation. The important part is that the people Obama will be relying on to help govern the country are sane, honest, smart people selected for their ability to do a good work in whatever capacity they serve.
I would prefer that nobody do the invocation, if you know what I mean.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9675 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  15:37:19   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps this is Obama throwing a little something to the fundies to make them not feel so left out.

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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  15:48:25   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think that Rick Warren is sane, honest or smart, so, I oppose this nomination.

It's not as bad as if he was a member of the government but still.

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  15:53:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Perhaps this is Obama throwing a little something to the fundies to make them not feel so left out.



I hope so too...throwing the godheads a porkchop bone to chew on so as to placate them.

Then, on into his presidency, Obama (hopefully) will shift gears towards equal marriage rights for gays.

All he'd have to do is say "Oops -- I changed my mind"; then weather a bit of the expected vile hatred that would spew forth from the fundie's pie hole.

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard

USA
4907 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  17:19:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Ricky an AOL message Send Ricky a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I think this choice is a big mistake. I understand the diversity of ideas thing, but couldn't he have found someone who isn't a bigot?


Whether we like it or not, bigots are who we have to work with. Going against them at every turn for no reason will lead to greater opposition when it comes to getting things done. Extending a hand when it isn't too important however may go great lengths in the future.

Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov
Edited by - Ricky on 12/18/2008 17:19:29
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  21:49:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I think the choice of a bigot and creationist to give an inaugural invocation is, at the very least symbolically, very bad indeed. I just hope that this doesn't signal any real policy move to the right by Obama. I think it doesn't, but I now admit I'm worried.

Does Barack Obama "get it" that this nation is now sick to death of these lying, decisive fundies? It will be up to us, as always, to hold the new President's feet to the fire. Hopefully, Obama will have more sensitive soles than Bush.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2008 :  23:14:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ricky
Whether we like it or not, bigots are who we have to work with. Going against them at every turn for no reason will lead to greater opposition when it comes to getting things done. Extending a hand when it isn't too important however may go great lengths in the future.
If there is one thing the last 8 years has taught me, Ricky, it's that religious bigots never compromise. It is the definition of a one-sided relationship. While quite willing to accept any concessions, deals, or favors offered to them, it is folly to expect anything in return. They are not rational or reasonable by definition. You cannot "work" with them. There is nothing to be gained by pandering to them. The only way to deal with them is to keep them as marginalized and as far away from the halls of power as possible.

I agree 100% Posner's conclusion in the article Kil referenced:
Warren represents the absolute worst of the Democrats' religious outreach, a right-winger masquerading as a do-gooder anointed as the arbiter of what it means to be faithful. Obama's religious outreach was intended, supposedly, to make religious voters more comfortable with him and feel included in the Democratic Party. But that outreach now has come at the expense of other people's comfort and inclusion, at an event meant to mark a turning point away from divisive politics. (emphasis mine)
Obama could have picked any number of religious moderates to speak at his inauguration. His decision to provide a national platform to a bigoted anti-science shyster of the lowest order is, quite frankly, inexcusable. My single abiding hope is that Obama gets so much flak over this choice that he's never tempted to make such a gross error in judgment again.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/18/2008 23:16:06
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  02:20:46   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This guy is an absolute moron. I'd say that any highschool student should have a better understanding of basic inheritance... but I forget, this is the US, and we don't give a crap about reality in education.

Recessive genes are impossible to remove via natural selection, since the gene isn't expressed except when both alleles are the recessive. So a negative survival trait, say albinism, never entirely leaves the gene pool. A carrier of a single recessive allele just passes it on to their children.

Warren is a fundie, bigot, anti-science, anti-stem cell research, anti-womens's right, homophobe and has no business on a national stage.

Honestly, if this guy is supposed to be the kinder/gentler US religious zealot... we are all well and truly fucked.

This guy is on the record as saying atheists should never be elected to public office because they are atheists.

So whatever. Another president panders to religious insanity. It doesn't really come as a shock.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  05:15:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's face it; he's gotta have an invocation, don't ask me why. But I feel that he could have done a hell of a lot better than the scumbag Warren.

If it were me, I'd have gone to Appalachia and found some small-time preacher that no one ever heard of to do it. That would have satisfied the tradition and only pissed off the wingnuts, and they'd have to keep their imbecilic gobs shut about it.

Warren is a mistake, but a minor one.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  10:46:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quoth the Rude One:
12/19/2008
Tubby the Preacher Says That, Because He Fucks Women, "I Have Fewer Broken Hearts. I Have Less STDs":
Really, Barack Obama? You really want Tubby the Preacher from the incredibly homoerotic-sounding Saddleback Church to give the invocation at your inauguration? Sure, yeah, he caught hell from evangelicals for allowing you in his church, but that doesn't mean you have to return the favor.

For your Friday reading fun, here's Tubby the Preacher on Larry King Live (But Just Barely) on December 2, 2005, in all his eclair cream-sucking glory, explaining why homosexuals are not right. Warning: it's a long conversation that involves genitalia, bananas, King's daughter, and peanut butter (really):



"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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marfknox
SFN Die Hard

USA
3739 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  14:45:45   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit marfknox's Homepage  Send marfknox an AOL message Send marfknox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Boron10. A religious ritual, specific to any particular religion and which is explicitly about communicating with the supernatural has no place in a governmental ceremony.

I actually don't care that it is Rick Warren. His point of view is representative of a huge portion of Americans, and it isn't as if his prayer will be about why gays shouldn't get married or why evolution is wrong.

As this country becomes increasingly religiously diverse and less traditionally religious, things such as invocations at inaugurations are going to seem out of place and more and more people will start waking up and asking themselves, "Wait, why do we do this?" Maybe it will be when we inaugurate our first openly non-Christian President. (I would make some crack about how that'll happen in about 100 years, but hell, I don't think anyone was expecting to have the first black president by 2008, so who knows.)

"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong

Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com

Edited by - marfknox on 12/19/2008 14:47:08
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  14:50:38   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Perhaps this is Obama throwing a little something to the fundies to make them not feel so left out.
*Ding* I agree with this-- the fundies can't throw out the "he's a Muslim" card so much if one of their fundie heroes is there swearing him in.
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist

USA
4954 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2008 :  14:56:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Cuneiformist a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude
So whatever. Another president panders to religious insanity. It doesn't really come as a shock.
But Dude-- given the huge number of those who are religiously insane in this country, doesn't a change-oriented, uniter-type guy need to at least early on do some pandering? I mean, otherwise he's left looking like Dear Leader who, in true asshole fashion, went far-right-fundie about 30 seconds into his "I'm a uniter"/"compassionate conservatism" first term.
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