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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 12/30/2008 : 03:08:07 [Permalink]
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| I'm more disgusted by the moment with the Republican Party. Instead of driving out the wackos who are responsible for its crushing defeat in November, the Party seems to be moving to make itself not merely in fact, but officially, the party of male, white, racist, fundamentalist reaction. |
If the current (as in the last 10-20 years) incarnation of the GOP implodes and seizes to be a viable option in American politics, I can't see how anything important is lost. Good riddance, I say. It would allow the Democrat party to move from right-of-center to left-of-center where at least I feel they belong.
More on topic:
My first impression of "Magic Negro"-business is that it's racist.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 05:07:16 [Permalink]
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I understand what you're saying about the implosion of the Republican Party not being a matter of regret. That's my first take, too. The problem is, the lack of a loyal opposition is very bad for the Democratic Party. It encourages corruption, and, rather than moving the party to the left, such a political vacuum lets it sprawl all over the political geography, right, left, and center.
When a party stands for everything, it stands for nothing.
If the GOP disintegrates as I think it will, a new conservative party will doubtless take its place. But this may take a long time, as fighting over the GOP's increasingly reactionary and fascistic corpse continues.
I don't expect the Democratic Party to suddenly become the ideological party that it's never been, but I would like to see it as an organization made up of coalitions spanning the spectrum from the center to democratic socialism. Meantime, I expect Obama's administration itself will be more focused, in a narrower center-left range.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 10:02:28 [Permalink]
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Well, here is my take on the song as presented by Saltzman and Rush. They love that the Times writer is black because a black man talking about "liberal guilt" and "magic negro's" confirms their own prejudice because, look, a black man said it. If a black man can say it, it must be true and it supports what they believe.
And that is their ticket to ride. They can say; "See?" and "We didn't come up with this, folks."
And all the time, they are pushing racial stereotypes, both white and black, with lots of embellishment by way of the song itself.
Again, I hear nothing in that song that lets us know that the intent of the song-writer was to expose the racism of the opinion piece that they (Rush and Saltzman) are now hiding behind, (spinning) as justification for the songs presentation of racial stereotypes.
The accusation of "liberal guilt" as the main reason for Obama's victory serves them in their continuing attack on all things liberal. All other reasons for Obama's victory can, in that way, be dismissed. And that is racist.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 19:47:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
When it's relevant to the point being discusssed... yes. |
I don't *have* to do anything, just as you don't. Also, I may well disagree with you on what is or isn't relevant.
Originally posted by Dave W.
The song is sung from a generic "angry" black man's point of view. Or do you think Sharpton would specifically have said those things, while other "authentic" black men (like Snoop Dogg, another alleged exemplar) would not? |
The song is sung from the point of view of Al Sharpton. That's not generic, that's specific.
I don't think I need to offer any opinions on if those words are things Sharpton would actually say, I believe it's understood that parody isn't a persons actual words. I also don't believe I need to offer any opinions on who is an “authentic” black man, or what an “authentic” black man might say.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Why? |
Because defining what the intent is also defines what it is not. If you say the target was the L.A. Times, then that becomes a strong argument that the target was not Sharpton or Obama.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Subordinate isn't pejorative if one ignores the master/slave context of race relations in the United States. And Morpheus certainly got to boss Neo around a whole bunch in the Matrix trilogy, but was still a Magic Negro. |
Imposing a master/slave context on every black/white relationship you find would be just as inappropriate as ignoring it altogether. I'll state again; subordinate isn't by itself pejorative, and POTUS certainly isn't subordinate.
I'm not sure why you bring up Morpheus, but I'll point out the “Magic Negro” in that story wasn't Morpheus, it was the Oracle.
Originally posted by Dave W.
But the point isn't about what's true, it's about real-life perceptions. Ehrenstein chose to describe what he thought white voters would see. |
I don't believe he literally believes white people think Obama is magic.
Originally posted by Dave W.
You're going to need to support your case, here. Asserting that it's possible is one thing. Ehrenstein didn't stop there, and neither have you. Where is the evidence? |
In a political opinion piece the standard of evidence isn't very high. The writer believes it might be true, and that is enough to get published.
Originally posted by Dave W.
That's why his piece was racist, and you're straddling the line. |
Except you put nothing in those two sentences to support your assertion. If Ehrenstein has no evidence, so what? That doesn't make his supposition racism.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Baloney. He clearly said, "I am a black man and here is what I think white people think about Obama." Had it been a white journalist stereotyping black attitudes towards a white candidate, he would have been fired. |
Google “black voters” and then tell me if you still think th |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 22:40:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
I don't *have* to do anything, just as you don't. Also, I may well disagree with you on what is or isn't relevant. |
That's fine, if you're not interested in the discussion you claimed was important.The song is sung from the point of view of Al Sharpton. That's not generic, that's specific.
I don't think I need to offer any opinions on if those words are things Sharpton would actually say, I believe it's understood that parody isn't a persons actual words. I also don't believe I need to offer any opinions on who is an “authentic” black man, or what an “authentic” black man might say. |
Fine, if you don't want to discuss it, then don't. You said you didn't "*have*" to, after all.| Because defining what the intent is also defines what it is not. If you say the target was the L.A. Times, then that becomes a strong argument that the target was not Sharpton or Obama. |
That was my point, which you argued is wrong.| Imposing a master/slave context on every black/white relationship you find would be just as inappropriate as ignoring it altogether. |
Apparently, you think this discussion is important, yet you are unable to have this discussion honestly. The master/slave relationship context is important to the "Magic Negro" concept, and that's what I was talking about, yet here you try to paint me as an idiot by asserting that I'm trying to impose that context on "every black/white relationship."| I'll state again; subordinate isn't by itself pejorative... |
Who cares? We're not talking about any subordination.| ...and POTUS certainly isn't subordinate. |
And in lots of "Magic Negro" films, the subordinate looks like he's bossing around the white male protagonist. Ehrenstein's point was that white people would vote for Obama because Obama would help out the white people. They're electing a manservant, not a leader.| I'm not sure why you bring up Morpheus, but I'll point out the “Magic Negro” in that story wasn't Morpheus, it was the Oracle. |
Good grief, it was both of them.| I don't believe he literally believes white people think Obama is magic. |
Wow. It is unbelievable that you would find it necessary to say such a thing.| In a political opinion piece the standard of evidence isn't very high. The writer believes it might be true, and that is enough to get published. |
So that means that whatever it is that the writer believes isn't racist?!| If Ehrenstein has no evidence, so what? That doesn't make his supposition racism. |
No, actually if he had solid evidence, that would make his supposition not racism. Go figure that one.| Google “black voters” and then tell me if you still think that. |
By this response, you're telli |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 00:31:30 [Permalink]
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There comes a point when defense of outrageous racists becomes indistinguishable from racism.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 02:51:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
That's fine, if you're not interested in the discussion you claimed was important. |
My participation in the discussion is evidence of interest. Why would you suggest otherwise? Your black-face argument was weak, and that's why I chose not to respond to it at first. Anything else you read into that is on you, not me.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Fine, if you don't want to discuss it, then don't. You said you didn't "*have*" to, after all. |
Dave, you're smarter than that. Go back and re-read that paragraph. It is clear I wasn't talking about a desire to discuss the issue, but in not buying into the false choice you offered. It is not a true choice between agreeing with you that the song is the equivalent of black-face or agreeing that those lyrics are really something Sharpton might say, etcetera.
Ironically, in the very next paragraph you call *me* dishonest.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Apparently, you think this discussion is important, yet you are unable to have this discussion honestly. The master/slave relationship context is important to the "Magic Negro" concept, and that's what I was talking about, yet here you try to paint me as an idiot by asserting that I'm trying to impose that context on "every black/white relationship." |
Dave, if I misunderstand something you say, please correct me, but that seemed to be what you were saying.
The master/slave relationship is not particularly important to the Magic Negro concept. Here is a pretty good article that gives a good definition of the term:
http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20041025/kinga.shtml
Originally posted by Dave W.
Good grief, it was both of them. |
I disagree. There isn't any meaningful definition that would include Morpheus that wouldn't also include virtually every non-white supporting character where the lead character is white.
Originally posted by Dave W.
So that means that whatever it is that the writer believes isn't racist?! |
I didn't say anything like that.
Originally posted by Dave W.
No, actually if he had solid evidence, that would make his supposition not racism. Go figure that one. |
It's up to you to demonstrate how his article is racist, if that's your assertion. I don't see how making statements about how peoples actions may be motivated by race, whether true or false, is inherently racist. At worst he's simply wrong.
Originally posted by Dave W.
By this response, you're telling me that you think that every time the term "black voters" is mentioned on the Intertubes, it must be a stereotype of black voters. I won't fall for that, nor for the argument-by-Google in the first place. |
No, but if you do the search you will find examples where journalists stereotyped black attitudes without being reprimanded or fired. Talking about demographic groups is pretty normal in an election year.
Originally posted by Dave W.
If that's what I meant, you |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9687 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2009 : 02:59:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
I'm not sure why you bring up Morpheus, but I'll point out the “Magic Negro” in that story wasn't Morpheus, it was the Oracle. |
Good grief, it was both of them. |
Now I'm confused. I thought the Oracle was a computer program...
Someone please explain to me if I got it wrong, but isn't the "Magic Negro" a tool in an attempt to white-wash (no pun intended) movie and TV from blatant racism, and in doing so making it a token of a new and more discreet racism?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 06:46:19 [Permalink]
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The way I understand it, the 'magic negro' is working for the main (white) character. Despite the fact that the 'magic negro' might be more capable or powerful than the white character, his only role and motivation still is to help the white dude out.
Morpheus is a good example, he is a competent revolutionary leader, he should be the boss. Except that his only role in the trilogy is to help a white dude becoming 'the one'. He has no ambitions of his own but to serve Neo... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 07:19:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Mycroft
I'm not sure why you bring up Morpheus, but I'll point out the “Magic Negro” in that story wasn't Morpheus, it was the Oracle. |
Good grief, it was both of them. |
Now I'm confused. I thought the Oracle was a computer program...
Someone please explain to me if I got it wrong, but isn't the "Magic Negro" a tool in an attempt to white-wash (no pun intended) movie and TV from blatant racism, and in doing so making it a token of a new and more discreet racism?
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The magical negro (sometimes called the mystical negro or magic negro) is a supporting, often mystical stock character in fiction who, by use of special insight or powers, helps the white protagonist get out of trouble.
- Wiki.
So yes, while the Oracle was a computer program, the "friendly black woman whose only purpose is to spout magic wisdom at the One's general direction" avatar fits the Magic Negro description. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 01/05/2009 07:23:33 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 10:13:30 [Permalink]
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Will Smith was originally offered the role of Neo. Not that that changes anything.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 11:52:39 [Permalink]
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Mycroft:
At worst he's simply wrong. |
So you completely discount the possibility that what he wrote might be racist?
Interesting...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 12:52:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Will Smith was originally offered the role of Neo. Not that that changes anything.
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I'd have loved to see that. Alas... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 21:00:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mycroft:
At worst he's simply wrong. |
So you completely discount the possibility that what he wrote might be racist?
Interesting...
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I completely discount...?
I don't understand why you phrase it that way. You can see all the same evidence I do, so what's your opinion? If you disagree with me, speak up and say why. If you feel I've overlooked something or interpreted something wrong, say so. I'll keep an open mind.
But yeah, I think it's easy to brand as racist something controversial you disagree with, that talks about race using language that's mildly shocking. It is, however, my opinion that to actually be racist, it should express prejudices or bias towards somebody's race, and I think it fails to do that.
But if you disagree, please jump in. :) |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 21:25:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Mycroft
Originally posted by Kil
Mycroft:
At worst he's simply wrong. |
So you completely discount the possibility that what he wrote might be racist?
Interesting...
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I completely discount...?
I don't understand why you phrase it that way. You can see all the same evidence I do, so what's your opinion? If you disagree with me, speak up and say why. If you feel I've overlooked something or interpreted something wrong, say so. I'll keep an open mind.
But yeah, I think it's easy to brand as racist something controversial you disagree with, that talks about race using language that's mildly shocking. It is, however, my opinion that to actually be racist, it should express prejudices or bias towards somebody's race, and I think it fails to do that.
But if you disagree, please jump in. :)
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I do disagree, but all you would have to do is look back at my comments in this thread to know that.
My last comment was questioning what seemed to me to be a statement of certainty on your part. Your "worst case" stops short of considering the possibility of racism. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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The GOP "Magic Negro" mess
