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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 08:10:10 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:10:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
LOL. Bill thinks that certain atmospheric oxygen levels are required for life!
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They are for mine. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:26:40 [Permalink]
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Yeah, but they are a secondary effect of life itself.
And no, Evolution theory is not a belief system, it is a scientific theory, a way to explain observed facts. In this particular case, it is; despite being extensively tested; an, as yet, un-falsified scientific theory (not yet contradicted by any observations) and indeed the best and only un-falsified theory to explain the variety of life through the world and the fossil record. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:32:27 [Permalink]
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Found some info on historical (geologically speeking) O2 levels:
The highest is estimated to be 35% during the Late Carboniferous. The lowest was around 13% during the Late Permian and Early Triassic. High O2 levels correlate with very large fauna, while low O2 correlates with periods of extinction. Totally cool.
(Dang, I lost my refrences)
Life seems to do well over a wide range of oxygen levels, though the higher the better.
(And I have no idea why the internal combustion engine is proof that God exists.)
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"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:43:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
They are for mine. |
Seems that humans can survive with anywhere from 10% to 100% oxygen in the atmosphere. Humans can also survive just fine without fire. The premises of that particular "design" argument are ludicrous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 09:50:47 [Permalink]
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He's gone to plaid. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 18:35:55 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Simon |
| Yeah, but they are a secondary effect of life itself. |
That is your belief.
| And no, Evolution theory is not a belief system, it is a scientific theory, a way to explain observed facts. |
You believe that it is a way to explain observed facts.
| In this particular case, it is; despite being extensively tested; an, as yet, un-falsified scientific theory (not yet contradicted by any observations) and indeed the best and only un-falsified theory to explain the variety of life through the world and the fossil record. |
Again, this is simply your belief.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 18:38:58 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Seems that humans can survive with anywhere from 10% to 100% oxygen in the atmosphere. |
And I am grateful that my atmosphere just so happened to have between 10% and 100% oxygen, therefore making my life possible.
| Humans can also survive just fine without fire. |
So be it. I just said that was I glad that our window allowed controlled fire burning.
| The premises of that particular "design" argument are ludicrous. |
Because every possible parameter imaginable in the atmosphere required for my existence is what is by design rather then it was just so?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 19:36:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by Simon |
| Yeah, but they are a secondary effect of life itself. |
That is your belief. |
No.
Analysis of sediment have shown that ferric oxyde only start to appear roughly between 4 to 3.5 billion years ago. This indicates that dioxygen was not present before that, it was only produced when photosynthetic activity reached a certain level.
Oxygen is a very good oxidant (hence the name) and promptly enters reaction and get fixed. The only reason we have such high concentration of oxygen is because photosynthesis constantly replenish it.
| And no, Evolution theory is not a belief system, it is a scientific theory, a way to explain observed facts. |
You believe that it is a way to explain observed facts.
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No.
It is obviously an explanation to observed facts. That's what it was designed to do since the beginning. No belief involved here, just a definition of scientific theory.
Obviously, ID is also an explanation of these facts. Except that ID, being un-falsifiable and non-naturalist, does not obey the rules of science and, as such, is not a scientific explanation.
The fact that
Evolution is, most probably, the correct explanation is merely an added bonus.
| In this particular case, it is; despite being extensively tested; an, as yet, un-falsified scientific theory (not yet contradicted by any observations) and indeed the best and only un-falsified theory to explain the variety of life through the world and the fossil record. |
Again, this is simply your belief.
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And, again, no.
I know there has been literaly tenth of thousands studies (and I am being conservative there) that could have falsified evolution but instead strengthened it by bringing results compatible with what evolution would have predicted.
On the other hand I only know of one study critical of evolution published in a peer reviewed journal. And, from what I heard, it was only published because it by-passed peer-reviewing.
Right now, you are not debating. You are just pretending that the facts that are there are not there.
You know, you can pretend that the earth is flat as much as you like, it is no going to affect the shape of the planet... |
| Edited by - Simon on 01/17/2009 22:59:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 21:23:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
And I am grateful that my atmosphere just so happened to have between 10% and 100% oxygen, therefore making my life possible.
...
Because every possible parameter imaginable in the atmosphere required for my existence is what is by design rather then it was just so? |
Ah, yes, the scared-of-reality, run-away-crying fallback of the proud-of-your-ignorance creationist: "scientists say 'it just happened to be like that'."
It's a lie, Bill. Don't believe it.
We've got all sorts of good evidence for why it happened as it did. Current atmospheric oxygen levels are fully explained by natural processes. Nobody needs to invoke a "just-so" story except for you whiny, pathetic Bible-thumpers who need to have their egos stroked by an imaginary abusive father-figure.
Those same oxygen levels made the lives of plague-carrying rats possible, too, Bill. You're not special. No matter how you try to spin it, the things that you are "grateful" for being designed "just so" are also sustaining the existence of horrid pestilences. The Sun shines on saint and sinner alike, Bill. If one is to accept your premises, then one is forced to the conclusion that every evil is also designed, by the same designer.
If you want to argue the science, Bill, then you have to learn the science. "It was just so" isn't what the science tells us. That you think it is just shows your commitment to arguing against the science from a position of blatant and willful ignorance, egged on by the "shepards" of your death cult.
The fact that the only way you can find to make yourself feel special is to repeat falsehoods about well-supported science is a symptom of just how pathetic your life is, Bill. Actually, no, the simple fact that you believe the falsehoods that others have taught you, because otherwise you think (ridiculously) that you won't be "saved" is what makes you and the deity you worship both pathetic. You're in a co-dependent relationship with an imaginary bully, Bill, and you've defended its actions and are even "grateful" for the hell it puts you through right here on Earth. You even call it "love."
You are a sickness, Bill. I say that because I think you are beyond remedy yourself, but you're obviously going to keep infecting others. I'd feel sorry for you as a victim if you made some sort of effort, but after all these years it is clear that you won't. You're a willing and eager carrier of a disease, which makes you no different from the disease itself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 21:33:55 [Permalink]
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 22:21:17 [Permalink]
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Geez, how did I miss this?Originally posted by Bill scott
Again, this is simply your belief. |
If science is just a belief, like religion, you're devaluing religious faith to being no more special than the belief I have that when I wake up tomorrow, my bedroom will still be carpeted (which is a scientific "belief").
It is really, really funny when the faithful inadvertently equate their faith in God with something so mundane that 99.999+% of people don't even think about it.
Bill, do you really have so little self-esteem that you think that equating religious and scientific epistemologies in order to make nothing more than a rhetorical point is the right thing to do? Or does your God really think so little of you that your love for Him is as important as the location of my toilet snake is to me, and He will reward you for thinking so?
I'm guessing the former. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 22:43:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Ah, yes, the scared-of-reality, run-away-crying fallback of the proud-of-your-ignorance creationist: "scientists say 'it just happened to be like that'."
It's a lie, Bill. Don't believe it.
We've got all sorts of good evidence for why it happened as it did. Current atmospheric oxygen levels are fully explained by natural processes. Nobody needs to invoke a "just-so" story except for you whiny, pathetic Bible-thumpers who need to have their egos stroked by an imaginary abusive father-figure.
Those same oxygen levels made the lives of plague-carrying rats possible, too, Bill. You're not special. No matter how you try to spin it, the things that you are "grateful" for being designed "just so" are also sustaining the existence of horrid pestilences. The Sun shines on saint and sinner alike, Bill. If one is to accept your premises, then one is forced to the conclusion that every evil is also designed, by the same designer.
If you want to argue the science, Bill, then you have to learn the science. "It was just so" isn't what the science tells us. That you think it is just shows your commitment to arguing against the science from a position of blatant and willful ignorance, egged on by the "shepards" of your death cult.
The fact that the only way you can find to make yourself feel special is to repeat falsehoods about well-supported science is a symptom of just how pathetic your life is, Bill. Actually, no, the simple fact that you believe the falsehoods that others have taught you, because otherwise you think (ridiculously) that you won't be "saved" is what makes you and the deity you worship both pathetic. You're in a co-dependent relationship with an imaginary bully, Bill, and you've defended its actions and are even "grateful" for the hell it puts you through right here on Earth. You even call it "love."
You are a sickness, Bill. I say that because I think you are beyond remedy yourself, but you're obviously going to keep infecting others. I'd feel sorry for you as a victim if you made some sort of effort, but after all these years it is clear that you won't. You're a willing and eager carrier of a disease, which makes you no different from the disease itself.
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Man, every once in a great while Dave will go on a tear that makes even me blush. And I have to say, well done.
Bill, I agree with all of it.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Really great website & reference
