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 Shermer interviews creationist at their museum
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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  09:38:36  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PZ found this painful to watch.

Note how she admits that they don't need to do experiments.


>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.

Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13462 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  11:06:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, sigh. If I were Shermer, I would have pressed her on the very unscientific approach of reaching a conclusion first and then force fitting the science into agreement with that conclusion, no matter how much science must be disregarded in order to do that. She calls herself a scientist, and yet she has literally thrown away the scientific method, because it's inconvenient. I'd have hammered her on that point.

Shermer touched on it, but moved on way too quickly. To my thinking, it's the difference between science and pseudo-science and is therefor the most important distinction between what the creation scientists are doing and what real scientists do.



But then again, when I visited the ICR, I didn't challenge Duane Gish, when I met him, at all. It's easy to sit here and be critical of Shermer. But he was on their turf. I know the feeling.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  19:03:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Shermer played soft ball with Georgia Purdom. Perdom is a molecular biologist, so it's only reasonable to assume that, at least in part of her brain, she knows that Creationism is pure, science-proof bunk.

But whether she's a "pure" liar or has cognitive dissonance going is besides the main point: What she's doing is the opposite of science. Im fact, it's even worse than that: It's religious dogma disguised as science. Shermer should have been all over her like flies on... on Noah's Ark.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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The Rat
SFN Regular

Canada
1342 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  20:43:09   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit The Rat's Homepage Send The Rat a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shermer, from what I've heard, is a nice guy, too nice to skewer someone and make them squirm. Probably just figured he would let the interview speak for itself. Let the viewer see the bullshit for themselves.

Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.

You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II

Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  21:49:56   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by The Rat

Shermer, from what I've heard, is a nice guy, too nice to skewer someone and make them squirm. Probably just figured he would let the interview speak for itself. Let the viewer see the bullshit for themselves.
Shermer did seem that sort of "nice guy" when I met him a couple weeks ago. I, too, often have a cringing tendency not to try to rip to shreds the people who I'm politely speaking with.

But in this sort of interview, I prefer "rude" skeptics to those who let the woos get away with brazen lies and deception. Somebody needs to call these people on their dishonesty, face to face. This interview was largely a lost opportunity.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  22:08:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One place where I think Shermer tried to push her but sort of failed to properly communicate his point was when she basically dismissed all the findings of science she didn't like as resulting from a preconceived bias. Like the AIG articles filthy has brought to our attention in the past, creationists love to state that "we all start with the same evidence, but our biases lead us to different conclusions." If you start with god's holy word, you can use to evidence to come to true conclusions. If you start by rejecting god's holy word, your biases will twist the evidence to come to false conclusions. That's almost an accurate description of what's happening here, but of course they have it backwards.

One of the most powerful counterarguments to this claim is to point out that if people who start with the conclusion that the bible is true should come to unbiased conclusions, then western science should have never abandoned the creationist model in the first place, since early scientists almost unanimously did believe that the bible was historical true. It was, at one time, the default assumption. Early European scientists should have been "biased" to see evidence for a young earth everywhere they looked, except that's not what they found. The evidence for an ancient Earth was strong enough to be incontrovertible. Even good Christian men were forced to admit that the Earth could not be young. Creationists love to blame all their ills on evolution, which they equate with atheism. But geology, archeology, paleontology, chemistry and physics are all against them as well, and there aren't enough atheists to go around.

Shermer did bring up this point briefly, but I don't feel he properly explained what he was getting at, and he let her change the topic without ever really following up on it. I think part of the problem is he is a better writer than debater. He has good ideas when can sit down and compose his thoughts, but I don't feel he's quick enough on his feet to properly present his arguments. At least, he's never impressed me in the clips I've seen.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/16/2009 22:09:37
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2009 :  01:33:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dontcha wish it had been Christopher Hitchens interviewing Purdom? That would have been a horse of another color.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/17/2009 01:33:56
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2009 :  02:26:27   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Dontcha wish it had been Christopher Hitchens interviewing Purdom? That would have been a horse of another color.


I doubt that That would have happened nor ever will. The first rule of the grift is; "Know your mark." Hitchens would never be able to get within shouting distance of Purdom because they know all about him and would avoid him, among numerous others, like a plague rat.

I too, avoid verbal debates due to slow thought process' and a quick temper.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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River Otter
Skeptic Friend

USA
67 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2009 :  05:13:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send River Otter a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow! Holy Bullshit Christman! OUCH! My eyes! My ears! My brain!

I think Shermer should get an award for patients. I don't know to many folk that could have set through that, and have been as in control of their temper as he.

I'm with Halfmooner. Even though it probably wouldn't happen, I would love to see Hitchens rip Purdom a new ass. One can dream can't they?

Even though some of the topics weren't gone over thoroughly, any uneducated skeptic would have seen right through Purdoms arguments. I learned about the other methods used for dating. I finally got a (unsatisfactory) creationists answer to the two contradictions in the creation story in chapters 1 & 2 of Genesis. I didn't come away from this video with nothing.

Thanks for sharing Ignored!

I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero

Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations.
Edited by - River Otter on 03/17/2009 05:14:30
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 03/17/2009 :  13:45:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, the Belly of the Beast! How sweetly it lends itself to the blade and cleaver of logic, reason, and factual evidence..... Our Mikey should be commended for his gentle & merciful nature. Anyone else, Hitchens, Dawkins or the noble PZ, or some of the nastier rowdies in here, would by now have her dressed-off and dismembered carcass hanging in the scientific smoke-house.
Note how she admits that they don't need to do experiments.
Of course they don't "need" to do experiments; they have it all in a Bronze Age collection of just-so stories, which divorces them from the necessity of coherent thought and indeed, reality.

Now, as we all know, thinkers can't be trusted to come up with the Creationist's desired results, thus, all of their studies and experiments must declared void even though AiG has no more authority to do this than that same, silly Bronze Age text of fable and fancy.

Gotta love 'em, though. Gotta love The Three Stooges as well.




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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the_ignored
SFN Addict

2557 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2009 :  14:06:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send the_ignored a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, now we have Ken Ham's take on it, as given by Jason Rosenhouse.




>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.

What brought that on? this. Original posting here.

Another example of this guy's lunacy here.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/21/2009 :  15:30:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though I do think Shermer played softball with Purdom, I think Ham is deluded to think that Purdom's constant injection of Genesis into the conversation was some kind of victory for AiG. That just made it clear to anyone watching the video that Purdom is a Christian zealot first, and a molecular biologist... never.

Maybe softball wasn't so bad, after all. It got the AiG folks to expose themselves as ideologues. If this interview pleased Ham, let's get more of them recorded!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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