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 Abbie 'ERV' Smith to debate YEC Charles Jackson
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  15:57:34  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Abbie Smith, the young University of Oklahoma graduate student, AIDS research scientist, living nightmare of Behe, Dembski and Luskin, and prodigious ScienceBlogger, is going to debate Dr. Charles Jackson, a Young Earth Creationist missionary with an EdD in Science Education.

The debate will be at 7 PM, March 26, at Christs Church of Yukon, Norman, OK. The subject of the debate will be “Does Molecular Genetics Support Human Evolution?” According to an announcement posted on ERV, "Each side will have 20 minutes to present their case followed by a 10-minute rebuttal from each followed by a time of question and answer from the audience."

Abbie promises that YouTube will have the video record of the debate. I'll post the YouTube link(s) here later.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.

Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/24/2009 17:03:28

Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  16:04:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hum, I am a bit wary about giving creationist the credibility of a 'debate'.

But Abbie Smith is one smart cookie... and the subject is precisely structured and fairly technical and should not allow much 'Gish galloping'.
I suspect a trap thoug...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  16:27:57   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

Hum, I am a bit wary about giving creationist the credibility of a 'debate'.

But Abbie Smith is one smart cookie... and the subject is precisely structured and fairly technical and should not allow much 'Gish galloping'.
I suspect a trap thoug...
Sure, it's a trap. Except for Ray Comfort (who is too stupid to know the difference), few Creos would walk into a debate they didn't think the venue and/or format was stacked in their favor.

I hope Abbie arrives early, and brings plenty of fiends.

And sure, most evolutionary scientists should stay well clear of such debates. Even a genius can be made to look the fool with techniques like the "Gish Gallop" in live debates.

But Abbie is one smart cookie, verbally as tough as Christopher Hitchens, and quick on her feet. She's got no PhD to make science look bad in case she "loses" -- and probably wouldn't care, anyway.

I suspect Jackson is in for a number of unpleasant surprises.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/24/2009 16:33:13
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  17:07:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

I hope Abbie arrives early, and brings plenty of fiends.
That is one beautiful typo.

By the way, I would hardly call Abbie's blogging "prodigious." She's about average in that regard, I think.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  18:06:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

I hope Abbie arrives early, and brings plenty of fiends.
That is one beautiful typo.

By the way, I would hardly call Abbie's blogging "prodigious." She's about average in that regard, I think.
LOL! I'm not going to correct "fiends" for anything!

My use of "prodigious" was in reference to Abbie's youth and non-PhD status when being inducted into the hallowed halls of ScienceBlogs, not the quantity of her blogging.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/24/2009 18:13:58
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26012 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  20:54:53   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

My use of "prodigious" was in reference to Abbie's youth and non-PhD status when being inducted into the hallowed halls of ScienceBlogs, not the quantity of her blogging.
This prompted me to look the word up. Until tonight, I only knew the "huge" or "enormous" meanings. Now, I know it also means "extraordinary" or "marvelous," and I'll agree with your application of it.

As my wife likes to say, you learn something new every goddammed day.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2009 :  23:06:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

My use of "prodigious" was in reference to Abbie's youth and non-PhD status when being inducted into the hallowed halls of ScienceBlogs, not the quantity of her blogging.
This prompted me to look the word up. Until tonight, I only knew the "huge" or "enormous" meanings. Now, I know it also means "extraordinary" or "marvelous," and I'll agree with your application of it.

As my wife likes to say, you learn something new every goddammed day.
There's also, to my mind, anyway, an implication of youthful accomplishment, as in the Biblical myth of the "prodigal son," and the term, "child prodigy."

But, honestly, I can't recall anywhere seeing the root word used as the adjective "prodigal" to mean what I intended.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/25/2009 00:44:40
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9677 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  02:12:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

I hope Abbie arrives early, and brings plenty of fiends.
That is one beautiful typo.
LOL! I'm not going to correct "fiends" for anything!

I'm a septic fiend...



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  02:14:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

I hope Abbie arrives early, and brings plenty of fiends.
That is one beautiful typo.
LOL! I'm not going to correct "fiends" for anything!

I'm a septic fiend...



Well, then be there!


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  10:44:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by HalfMooner

My use of "prodigious" was in reference to Abbie's youth and non-PhD status when being inducted into the hallowed halls of ScienceBlogs, not the quantity of her blogging.
This prompted me to look the word up. Until tonight, I only knew the "huge" or "enormous" meanings. Now, I know it also means "extraordinary" or "marvelous," and I'll agree with your application of it.

As my wife likes to say, you learn something new every goddammed day.
There's also, to my mind, anyway, an implication of youthful accomplishment, as in the Biblical myth of the "prodigal son," and the term, "child prodigy."

But, honestly, I can't recall anywhere seeing the root word used as the adjective "prodigal" to mean what I intended.




A prodigy is essentially a miracle. Especially one that has prophetic implication.
So it thus apply very well for younger individual (whose gifts are almost miraculous but also omen from things to come as they mature).

But Prodigal comes from another word altogether and does not belong to the same family of words and has a very different meaning.
Although, you could probably speak of prodigious prodigality, for example about the stimulus package ...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  12:17:23   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Simon

A prodigy is essentially a miracle. Especially one that has prophetic implication.
So it thus apply very well for younger individual (whose gifts are almost miraculous but also omen from things to come as they mature).

But Prodigal comes from another word altogether and does not belong to the same family of words and has a very different meaning.
Although, you could probably speak of prodigious prodigality, for example about the stimulus package ...
To coin a phrase, "you learn something new every goddammed day."


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2009 :  22:42:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Abbie now has done the debate, and has posted her first impressions of it. YouTube video of the debate is yet to be posted.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/26/2009 22:57:52
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Simon
SFN Regular

USA
1992 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  12:28:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Simon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good... Seems like she kicked asses and took name.
But then again, being smarter, more knowledgeable and right might have given her an unfair advantage...

Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  12:54:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't matter if she kicked his ass. The only proper debate on this subject will be a written one. I suppose there is a fun factor, but it won't change anything.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  15:36:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Abbie's now posted more at ERV (comment #8, etc.), and there are also comments by attendees of the debate. It turns out to have been a long debate, 2-1/2 hours or so. Can't wait for the YouTube videos!
Originally posted by Kil

Doesn't matter if she kicked his ass. The only proper debate on this subject will be a written one. I suppose there is a fun factor, but it won't change anything.
I think a debate matters a lot, though it requires a flat playing field and a very good debater. By being there, and pleasantly talking understandable science to a mixed crowd, while her opponent tied to baffle with sciency bullshit, Abbie made progress on several points:

First, she rallied and heartened science supporters. Moments like this are very important.

She also made points to the fundies in the audience:

Science is here to stay, and isn't afraid. ("We're here, we think clear, get used to it.") Rational people concede no field of battle. It's not all that difficult for laymen to understand many scientific principles. Science is not the enemy of fundamentalists, just of fundamentalism.

I think that as their Culture War is gradually lost to them, some day many of the fundies in the crowd will become more moderate. Some of them will remember a smiling and reasoning Abbie Smith, standing up to a guy with a EdD who was spewing deliberately incomprehensible nonsense.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13467 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  16:35:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by HalfMooner

Abbie's now posted more at ERV (comment #8, etc.), and there are also comments by attendees of the debate. It turns out to have been a long debate, 2-1/2 hours or so. Can't wait for the YouTube videos!
Originally posted by Kil

Doesn't matter if she kicked his ass. The only proper debate on this subject will be a written one. I suppose there is a fun factor, but it won't change anything.
I think a debate matters a lot, though it requires a flat playing field and a very good debater. By being there, and pleasantly talking understandable science to a mixed crowd, while her opponent tied to baffle with sciency bullshit, Abbie made progress on several points:

First, she rallied and heartened science supporters. Moments like this are very important.

She also made points to the fundies in the audience:

Science is here to stay, and isn't afraid. ("We're here, we think clear, get used to it.") Rational people concede no field of battle. It's not all that difficult for laymen to understand many scientific principles. Science is not the enemy of fundamentalists, just of fundamentalism.

I think that as their Culture War is gradually lost to them, some day many of the fundies in the crowd will become more moderate. Some of them will remember a smiling and reasoning Abbie Smith, standing up to a guy with a EdD who was spewing deliberately incomprehensible nonsense.


So, how many live debates do you think it will it take to accomplish that?

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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