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TheTruth11
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2009 : 14:04:12 [Permalink]
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I'm not a doctor of any kind; just someone who has been in the proper position to see results with my own eyes, and touch them with my own hands. All of the examples I cited in my prior post are things that actually happened - and that happen every day. I do not need to understand the science to believe the results, and I acknowledge that you do not have the experience of these things for yourself.
My point is, I did not not need these experiences to heed some credit to the things I do not know, but I was blessed with the opportunity. Theretofore, I do not have the "science" or "reason" that you seek as evidence, nor do I have the time or patience to type out what I have been taught, simply for your benefit. If you feel the need, Go to Northwestern Health Sciences University of the Palmer school and earn that for yourself.
I can clearly see that you are amongst the majority of people in our world who are incapable of abstract thought, and that I will never be able to teach you anything that you have not already decided for yourself.
You would be wise to keep in mind that just because something is not scientific or reasonable to you, does not mean that it is non-scientific or non-reasonable in reality. All great advances in science were born of faith, creativity, and the intangible ability to perceive beyond one's knowledge. This is a characteristic you sadly seem to lack, which makes your credibility of what is real, what could be real, and what is "quackery" essentially non-valuable.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 14:28:41 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN TheTruth11
TheTruth11:
"Traditional Medicine" is a science that treats symptoms - not actual problems. |
Yes, that is the mantra those who promote alternative medicine. But gosh, do you think when my Doctor placed me on a diet, recommended exercise to me, and told me to stop smoking that he was only treating the symptom? Your new age cliche of what evidence based Doctors do is just that. A cliche.
Another cliche is that there is a conspiracy to keep us sick so that the money keeps rolling in to the medical establishment. And yet, the cure rates can actually be quantified empirically, unlike the anecdotes that are the gold standard for evidence in the alternative medicine industry, which is all that you have offered us so far.
I'm willing to hear you out. But it's important for you to note that we default to critical thinking and science. We also demand evidence and sources to back up claims of fact. The point is, we are not lemmings and are not willing to walk off a cliff, or more precisely, drop our pants just because someone says they felt better after a detoxification colon cleansing enema.
If you actually believe that you can provide the evidence for the claims you have made, bring it on. I, for one, am all ears.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13476 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 14:44:02 [Permalink]
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TheTruth11:
This is a characteristic you sadly seem to lack, which makes your credibility of what is real, what could be real, and what is "quackery" essentially non-valuable. |
Beginning with the assumption that we are closed minded says more about you than it does about us. The fact that we default to critical thinking is so we can limit the bias that slips through our own filters, and catch the mistakes in logic and reason that come from other sources. It's a tool that levels the playing field. We are fully aware of the fact that new idea's in science are born of creative thought and a willingness to test a path as yet untested. Why would you assume that we are not cognizant of that?
Lose your assumptions about us and who knows, we might get somewhere.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 14:57:14 [Permalink]
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| I'm not a doctor of any kind; just someone who has been in the proper position to see results with my own eyes, and touch them with my own hands. All of the examples I cited in my prior post are things that actually happened - and that happen every day. |
And I've seen neck manipulations that have done no effect, and sometimes they have even hurt and crippled people. So now who should we believe, me or you? I suppose we could just go with whoever can yell the loudest. Obviously this is a bad method for deciding what reality is.
| All great advances in science were born of faith, creativity, and the intangible ability to perceive beyond one's knowledge. |
While this is for the most part true (if you mean faith in science, faith here meaning trust), I've also noticed a tendency in the history of science for the guys to test their advances* before announcing that they are advances. You know, that whole "laboratory" thing, with white coats and all. And this is all we ask. Show us what that you claim is actually true.
*This isn't always true, Einstein being the cliche counter-example. But for the vast majority of the history of science, it certainly is. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 04/30/2009 14:57:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 15:47:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by TheTruth11
I'm not a doctor of any kind; just someone who has been in the proper position to see results with my own eyes, and touch them with my own hands. All of the examples I cited in my prior post are things that actually happened - and that happen every day. I do not need to understand the science to believe the results... |
Yes, yes, yes, you have faith that the people you think are heroes aren't feeding you a line of baloney. We got that the first time.| ...and I acknowledge that you do not have the experience of these things for yourself. |
And we get that you "acknowledge" things that are false. We got that, too.| My point is, I did not not need these experiences to heed some credit to the things I do not know, but I was blessed with the opportunity. Theretofore, I do not have the "science" or "reason" that you seek as evidence, nor do I have the time or patience to type out what I have been taught, simply for your benefit. If you feel the need, Go to Northwestern Health Sciences University of the Palmer school and earn that for yourself. |
Yes, we got that you don't place any weight upon evidence, and that you just want to preach to us without expending a whole lot of effort.| I can clearly see that you are amongst the majority of people in our world who are incapable of abstract thought, and that I will never be able to teach you anything that you have not already decided for yourself. |
Yes, we also got that you think we're biased, and we got that you're free with the insults because you take this stuff personally.| You would be wise to keep in mind that just because something is not scientific or reasonable to you, does not mean that it is non-scientific or non-reasonable in reality. |
Yes, we got the part about your reliance on wishful thinking, too.| All great advances in science were born of faith, creativity, and the intangible ability to perceive beyond one's knowledge. |
You're dead wrong, here. The great advances in science were born of a creativity in weaving together disparate pieces of knowledge that had been around for a while already. There was no faith involved, and "the intangible ability to perceive beyond one's knowledge" is meaning-free, new age nonsense.| This is a characteristic you sadly seem to lack, which makes your credibility of what is real, what could be real, and what is "quackery" essentially non-valuable. |
Yes, we understood that you would, instead of supporting your views with evidence, resort to personal insults.
Will no enthusiast of quackery ever come up with anything new, like some real data? This person certainly has the "I love alt-med" script down pat, but odds are he/she thinks him/herself to be a non-conformist way out ahead of the pack. And since TheTruth11 feels free to ironically invent truths, is there any reason to tolerate his/her personal attacks and bullying? I'm pretty sure we're already at the point-and-laugh stage, and it only took this person two posts. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 16:30:44 [Permalink]
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm having flashbacks to the PIP shill episode.
The Truth,
Well, where do we begin.
With no background in medicine and anecdotal evidence, I find your assertions suspect.
While I do listen to doctors, I also do my own research when one of them tells me something. I try to avoid unnecessary prescriptions.
Some of our symptoms are psychosematic, and some of us need the dog and pony show. It's why that some placebos work on some patients.
I'm also a believer in herbalism. The real version, not the "herbs are great and have no side effects and you don't have to tell your doctor" crowd. That herbalism is good for mild cases of some conditions. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26020 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 16:41:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
I disagree with this, there is a certain amount of faith (which I am taking to mean "trust") a scientist must have. For example, faith that not only does the universe make sense, but that science gives us a method for understanding it. Faith that there is an answer. Perhaps you call this by a different name, but reading and rereading TheTruth11's post, I see no other interpretation that makes sense. |
On a philosophically shallow level, the "trust" of which you speak was hammered out long ago, and is simply referred to as "reality" now. We could go deeper, and discuss the assumption of an objective reality (which I now believe doesn't require assumption after all) in order to do science, but I really don't think TheTruth11 was intending such a depth of meaning. I take his/her words at face value, and "faith" means, in the context given, "action in disregard to evidence" and not "trust" at all. With so much emphasis on not understanding, and just believing, how could it be anything else?| As for "the intangible ability to perceive beyond one's knowledge", I believe he is simply meaning good intuition. And there is no doubt in my mind that this is required for science (and maybe even more so for mathematics). |
Such intuition is included in "creativity." But TheTruth11's phrase still strikes me as a completely silly way to say "intuition."
Really, the important meaning to TheTruth11's words is this:Great scientists were just like me, and didn't fart around with all that 'evidence' and 'testing' nonsense. And you people suck. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 18:29:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Anyone know much about detoxification diets and supplements? My wife's personal physician is recommending she do a ten day liver detoxification diet. My quack meter started beeping so I thought I should put it to the forum. Thoughts? Links? Anyone?
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I would definitely suggest that your wife avoid ingesting liver toxins for at least 10 days - actually, even, for her entire life. I'm referring, for example, to this.
Chaloobi, have you done a search on your wife's physician's name to see what you can find, maybe about her background or claims she makes in any website about her practice?
"Group visits" can be charged to insurance (short individual visit, which in this case sounds like it'd be to write a "personalized" Rx for this company's products, associated with an mass information session with a larger audience of the doctor's patients). "Classes" can't be charged to insurance, without it being fraud (at least not as far as I know).
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sika6061
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 08/06/2014 : 12:43:01 [Permalink]
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I know this is an old post, but I just wanted to thank everyone for your efforts. I was also looking to see if Metagenics was a scam or not as it was recommended as part of a weight loss regimen. I'm always wary of people recommending supplements - especially for weight loss, and I'm glad my skeptic alarm went off in this case before I shelled out the big bucks. Thanks to everyone for doing the research on this subject. You helped me save a significant amount of money. Y'all rock!  |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1486 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2014 : 10:23:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sika6061
I know this is an old post, but I just wanted to thank everyone for your efforts. I was also looking to see if Metagenics was a scam or not as it was recommended as part of a weight loss regimen. I'm always wary of people recommending supplements - especially for weight loss, and I'm glad my skeptic alarm went off in this case before I shelled out the big bucks. Thanks to everyone for doing the research on this subject. You helped me save a significant amount of money. Y'all rock!
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Hiya and welcome, sika! |
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Detoxification diet
